The other side of the story...

[Huitzilopochtli]

Since reading many posts in this forum, and specifically all posts concerned with the recent historical events I could only notice how obtuse and unilateral most views are...
Open thyselfs a little.
You've all grown up in a mediatic systema that does not, in any true (material) form, allow dissent.
Freedom of speech and liberty are only an abstract fiction called upon by many american minds to justifiy other attrocious acts. but then again it isn't your fault.. after all he who wins wars writes up history..

the other side:

http://www.intifada.com




Maca niya
ompa ximohuayan

May I not go
to the realm of the unbodily

Tlaltecatzin. aztec poet.

 

[Eli]

URGENT: A Poll is being conducted if International monitors should be sent to protect the Palestinians. We were informed of it by Gush Shalom the Israeli peace movement who are asking for your votes.

Bunch of ****ing idiots. Let's see them go to their Palestinian friends for a visit.

-------

We loved there.

We hate no one, but we despise injustice.

In peace we believe, for freedom we fight.

We have a right to live in peace in our Palestine. This is why there is Intifada.

Aha... I get it. It's the evil Zionist Mossad who massacred 21 kids in a discoteque(sp?), 14 other people in a pizzeria, ~100 people who were driving from home to work and many more in malls, bus stations etc. The Palestinians have nothing to do with it, they are just busy with peaceful non violent protests.

 

[Huitzilopochtli]

As far as i knew there is a ratio of 1:10 palestinians killed to jews since the movement began...

Maybe tomorrow the legal fight of palestinians will be noted in history books as "fight for independece", just as the kurd's fight.
But maybe not..
Imagine if the british had never lost their american colonies, then history books would have a small chapter about that petty terrorist insurrection in 1776.
Or if the Nazis had won the war, they would state something like "final solution to man's problems attained in awsvitch (however it's written)....

But no. Today someone else has the power, and stating who is or who isn't a terrorist, or what is a just cause is strictly a matter of controlled opinion...

for this point:

During and after the establishment of the state of Israel, almost 800,000 Palestinian refugees were created by a process that today would be called ethnic cleansing. These refugees and their descendants are the largest and most persistent refugee problem in the world with over 3.7 million registered by the United Nations and about 2 million others not registered but living in countries and regions sometimes within a very short distance of their original homes and lands.

The international community, which recommended the partition of Palestine, felt a deep sense of responsibility for this tragedy. Count Folke Bernadotte, the UN Mediator stated: "It would be an offence against the principles of elemental justice if these innocent victims of the conflict were denied the right to return to their homes, while Jewish immigrants flow into Palestine" (UN Doc Al 648, 1948). This remains true today as any person with a Jewish religion can gain automatic citizenship while Palestinians born in Palestine/Israel cannot return to their homeland

The Right of Return has a solid legal basis. The United Nations adopted Resolution 194 on December 11, 1948. Paragraph 11 states: "...the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date... compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return." Resolution 194 was affirmed practically every year since with a universal consensus, except for Israel and the U.S. This resolution is further clarified by UN General Assembly Resolution 3236 which reaffirms in Subsection 2, "the inalienable right of the Palestinians to return to their homes and property from which they have been displaced and uprooted, and calls for their return". Hindering return is an act of aggression which deserves condemnation and/or action by the Security Council. Liability for consequences of violation remains with Israel. UN partition resolution 181 and Israel's later admission to the UN were conditional on acceptance of relevant UN resolutions including 194.

The Right of Return does not derive its validity merely from UN Resolutions. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights article 13 reaffirms the right of every individual to leave and return to his country. Moreover, the Principle of Self Determination guarantees, inter alia, the right of ownership and domicile in one's own country. This principle was adopted by the UN in 1947. In 1969 and thereafter, it was explicitly applied to the Palestinian People, including "the legality of the Peoples' struggle for Self-Determination and liberation", (GAOR 2535 (xxiv), 2628 (xxv), 2672 (xxv), 2792 (xxvi)). International law demands that neither occupation nor sovereignty diminish the rights of private ownership. When the Ottomans surrendered in 1920, Palestinian ownership of the land was maintained. The land and property of "the refugees" remains their own and they are entitled to return to it.

Research not only shows that the right of the refugees is sacred and legal but also possible (i.e. it is a myth that Israelis would have to be displaced to allow for the return of the refugees). A study on the demography of Israel shows that 78% of Israelis are living in 14 percent of Israel and that the remaining 86% of the land in Israel is mostly land that belongs to the refugees on which 22% of the Israelis live. However, 20% live in city centers, which are mostly Palestinian such as, Beer Al Saba', Ashdod, Majdal, Asqalan, Nazareth, Haifa, Acre, Tiberias and Safad. As for the remaining 20%, they live in kibbutzes and moshavs. They control the legacy and heritage of five million Palestinian refugees. Is there any logic to having 2,400 refugees on one square kilometer in the Gaza Strip while any one of them could look over the barbed wire and see his land practically empty? If Gaza refugees returned to their homes in southern Palestine, no more than five percent of Jews in the center would be affected. If the refugees of Lebanon returned to their homes in the Galilee no more than one percent of Jews in the center would be affected. The total number of refugees from Gaza and Lebanon equals the number of Russian immigrants who came to Israel in the '90s to live in the homes of these refugees. What right brings in Russian Jews and what kind of peace deprives Palestinian refugees the right to return home?

According to a report by Amnesty International last December, 2650 Palestinian houses have been destroyed since 1987 by Israel in the West Bank, including east Jerusalem, on the pretext of not having building permission. Further thousands of acres owned by Palestinians have been confiscated to build settlements in the occupied territories in contraventions to the 4th Geneva convention Article 49 stating that the "Occupying Power shall not transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies." The AI report is available at: http://www.web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/index/MDE150591999

The inalienable rights of refugees cannot be left to "negotiations" between Israel and the Palestinian authority. International law considers agreements between an occupier and any body in occupied areas to be null and void if they deprive civilians of recognized human rights including the rights to repatriation and restitution. No peace will be durable without solving the refugee situation regardless of agreements signed between a strong party (Israel) and a weak and unrepresentative one (Yasser Arafat).

and furthermore:

The US is bound by its constitution to support human rights and freedom. There is no more elemental right than one's right to his/her home and to live in his/her land. The US could use the massive financial support we give to the State of Israel to press for this right.

Ma aca ca cizquia noyol ac?

Could somebody perhaps be the owner of my heart?

Tlaltecatzin, aztec poet

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

Huitzilopochtli, it's easy to cut and paste quotes, but you gave no source, and also set up an exremly biased and inaccurate view of events.

The Arab world rejected the very partition you mention, and launched a war of extermination against the Jews in 1948, which they lost.

The Palastinians left with the other Arab armies, hoping to return when they tried to wipe out the Jews in the future, but the Jewish state sucessfully resisted this time and again.

As seem to be your point, two sides to things.

It would have been better if you had shown this, instead of attempting to paint the Jews as evil aggressors.

 

[Eli]

tsk, tsk, tsk.

From where do you bring your facts? 1:10? It's only 1:~3.75, and if we cound how many were killed since the beginning of the peace process it's only a bit higher for the Pals. The intifada changed it.


As for the right of return, I agree with you, it is the just thing to do. But this will bring the end of the state of Israel, and of the Jewish majority there, and will completely change the life of the people who live here now, like myself. And that is why I dont give a **** about how justified it is.

 

[Huitzilopochtli]

AoA, sorry for the mishap, the source is

http://http://al-awda.org/factsheet.htm

What is regarded as a war of extermination by arabs was actually another call to intifada following the arbitrary partition of arab states by the british colonial power after WWII. The displacements of palesitnes was occurring before this war ever happened.

Eli, do you really think that having a neighbor from a different race will affect that much your way of living?,

Many isralites and palestinians have managed to live together and learn from each other despite the madness from both sides.
The jewish-arab peace movement, Gush Shalom, that you insulted in your first post is an example.



In antocnihuane,
tla oc xoconacaquican:
ma ac azo ayac in tecunenemi
Cualanyotl, cocolotl,
ma zo ilcahui,
ma zo pupulihui
yeccan tlatlipac

My friends,
hear it:
Let no one live with ideas of greatness
passions , disputes
be forgotten
let them dissapear
in a good hour for our Earth.

Cacamatzin, aztec poet

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by Huitzilopochtli
AoA, sorry for the mishap, the source is

http://http://al-awda.org/factsheet.htm

What is regarded as a war of extermination by arabs was actually another call to intifada following the arbitrary partition of arab states by the british colonial power after WWII. The displacements of palesitnes was occurring before this war ever happened.

I dont remember the exact quote but the Arab leaders vowed to kill all Jews in the area.

Eli, do you really think that having a neighbor from a different race will affect that much your way of living?,

Think about it this way:
They are primitive fanatics(living in refugee camps is not pleasant) who were tought since birth to hate your country, to destroy it, to hate the Jews and throw them all to the sea. They were tought that there is only one solution to their problem is the complete destruction of the State of Israel and the annihilation of it's citizens. And then, you're going to double the population of that country(and this is problematic already), and bring these people to there.

And even if it was lots of "blond eurocoms"(using Bob Dornan's style ) we will see the end of the Jewish Majority in Israel, which is already not acceptable.

Many isralites and palestinians have managed to live together and learn from each other despite the madness from both sides.
The jewish-arab peace movement, Gush Shalom, that you insulted in your first post is an example.

Gush Shalom are the people who go to funerals of Palestinians but dont visit Israelis who were murdered. That pretty much sums it up.

 

[G-Man]

First of all, by the adress of the site you quoted from I can tell it's an arab website, ad therefore is not a reliable source as far as I concern. Also, the Gush Shalom movement are Israeli. The Palestinians have NO peace movements what-so-ever. And this thread is about the Palestinians right to have a country - very well, let them have it. But Israel can't give them everything they want, and untill we give them anything they want they will keep on fighting. Israel retreated in Lebanon. We allowed UN observers to come. Did it help? No. How can you assure me that this won't happen with the Hamas and Islamic Jihad? These groups are associated with Bin Laden, who's helper said today that the crime of the Israeli and Americans was the foundation of Israel. Not something that we did, just because we're here we should be killed.
And why won't we give some land to everyone that was in Israel, and now isn't here. Just by being somewhere before don't give you the right to have it again. Israelis wanted to get their country in peace, and the arabs attacked us because we weren't Muslims. Now you tell me, who's the racist here. Also, you forgot that Israel didn't do an "ethnic cleansing" with the Palestinians. Since the day Israel was founded and until today there are many, many arabs and Palestinians living in Israel, and have full rights (no 2nd class civilians here).

 

[joespaniel]

To the gentleman from Mexico City

I looked up that website and its a Palestinian owned and operated propaganda rag. Not that I read what you quoted anyway...

You are dead set against America and Isreal no matter what anyone says so I wont bother talking to you about it. AoA is right though, there are two sides to every issue. You happen to be on the other side.

 

[G-Man]

I know another propoganda site... you now, for "the other side of the story"...

I don't hide the fact that it's a propoganda site. Enjoy!

The movies are great... Just don't let any kids see them.

 

[joespaniel]

I was watching Osama bin Laden on TV just now. Talk about propaganda, yikes! I'm glad that I'm not like that.

I'm going outside now to wave my Stars-and-Stipes, sing God-Bless-America, curse at arabs and smoke a Marlboro.

 

[G-Man]

Don't curse arabs... Curse all people who wanna kill other people because of something they are and not something they did

 

[joespaniel]

I was being facetious. Sarcastic. Silly.

Just making a point about propaganda. We will see lots of that for awhile.

 

[Eli]

G-Man - I'm sure that there are a bit more proffesional pro Israeli sites than this rotter ****.

 

[G-Man]

I'm sure there are. But rotter has the advantage of not taking a political view (in this part of his site atleast) and of showing a lot of pictures. And pictures, unlike the sh*t published on Huitzilopochtli's site, are facts.

 

[joespaniel]

I wouldn't know. I grew up in a mediatic system that doesn't allow dissent in the true material form of the word.

I can't think for myself. I trust Wolf Blitzer for my opinions.

btw- I wish I had a name that sounds that cool

I think those nice terrorists should be left alone so they can plan the next bombing in peace. So sayeth MTV.

 

[Huitzilopochtli]

They are primitive fanatics(living in refugee camps is not pleasant) who were tought since birth to hate your country, to destroy it, to hate the Jews and throw them all to the sea.

primitive?, In fact palestinians are widley regarded as a very educated people

fanatics? sorry i thought zionists where very humane loving people that regard their neighbors as something more than cattle to be displaced and shot at.


G-man

And this thread is about the Palestinians right to have a country - very well, let them have it. But Israel can't give them everything they want, and untill we give them anything they want they will keep on fighting

Some palestinians only want the right to bury their dead in their ancestral homelands.

And why won't we give some land to everyone that was in Israel, and now isn't here. Just by being somewhere before don't give you the right to have it again.

As the americans proved so well after the killing and displacement of so many indian's.


Since the day Israel was founded and until today there are many, many arabs and Palestinians living in Israel, and have full rights (no 2nd class civilians here).

mmm, like the right to observe as russian jews get all the job, housing, and social opportunites , or like the right to observe as 200 jewish settlers displace 2000 palestinians and receive all the necesarry services before them,,, yep basicly the right to see as any jew receives their rights before them in their own land.

You are dead set against America and Isreal no matter what anyone says so I wont bother talking to you about it. AoA is right though, there are two sides to every issue. You happen to be on the other side.

Now I would like to make myself clear. I am not pro-arab or anti american or anti jewish, Im simply presenting you with the facts that have fueled the intifada. That my sympathy shiftes toward the palestinians is undeniable. Just to see a kid fighting with a stone against a tank doesen't seem right...

I presented you with sites that have an obvious arab tendency, but unlike that rotter site you presented it is filled with something more than scandalous fotographs, they are in fact a little bit more serious, And yes I do beleive that an UN resolution is a bit more factual than a tendacious set of photographs. Anyway I could produce some photografs with another type of tendecy alltogetger but that is not my point.

Joespanial, you're crude remarks also weight in my favor. I recomend you read "fabricating consense" by Noam Chomsky.

To uphold liberty while a rapacious capitalist system gives no choice to most mankind but to starve is a supreme hipocrasy.

And, don't get personal, In no way will I uphold that ALL american citizens eat that bs with such complacency, there's Noam for example..


Ipal Nemohua!
In Izquixochitl, cacahuaxochitl
zan noconelehuiya,
zan ninentlamatia...

Giver of Life!
Smell clad flower, beautifull flowers
with such desire I need them
bane wisdom had I

Nezahualcoyotl

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by Huitzilopochtli
fanatics? sorry i thought zionists where very humane loving people that regard their neighbors as something more than cattle to be displaced and shot at.


G-man



Some palestinians only want the right to bury their dead in their ancestral homelands.

mmm, like the right to observe as russian jews get all the job, housing, and social opportunites , or like the right to observe as 200 jewish settlers displace 2000 palestinians and receive all the necesarry services before them,,, yep basicly the right to see as any jew receives their rights before them in their own land.

I thought I made it very clear that I can't answer to you when you say things without proofs. We treat them like cattle? When? We get more rights? Show me that.

And those palestinians that only want to bury their dead, where are they? Why don't they demonstrate? Why don't they put pressure on Arafat? Who are they?

 

[joespaniel]

Huitzilopochtli - None of your arguments have any facts, they sound like the drivel spewed out by the Taliban. You keep regurgitating all this crap from militant propaganda sites.

I don't claim to have all the answers, and I'm not 100% on Isreals side on everything. Both sides have made mistakes. But the Isrealis could destroy all the Palestinians with their military might, and yet they dont. Hamas attacks innocent people in their homes and at work and in the streets. They are not 'freedom fighters' as they claim. They're killers. Isreal has every right to respond to terrorist attacks, and should.

When the Palestinians stop killing innocents, and recognize Isreals right to exist as well, then I would support their cause.

You are free to have your opinions, just as we are free to think they are misguided.

 

[animepornstar]

And this thread is about the Palestinians right to have a country - very well, let them have it. But Israel can't give them everything they want, and untill we give them anything they want they will keep on fighting

however, the palestinians have the international laws on their side. the israelian occupation of palestinian ground is still illegal.