The other side of the story...

[GeneralHotRod]

To animepornstar:

The nation of Isreal was established by the UN after WWII, and I belive the UN is the establisher of international law. The only reason Isreal has expanded was to give them some breathing space from agressor nations like Syria and Lebannon.

If the Arab community is so concerened about establishing a Palistinian state why don't the bordering Arab states pony up some land. Syria and Jordan have plenty.

To Montezuma:

It seems you have some problem with Isreal, but I think you are misguided. Yassar Arafat had wanted to set up a Palistinian government backed by Hamas and Islamic Jihad. The two groups exist for the sole purpose of exterminating Israel.
Secondly you should read the PLO charter and the Israeli constitution and compare the two. See which group is more radical.

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by animepornstar
however, the palestinians have the international laws on their side. the israelian occupation of palestinian ground is still illegal.

I'm tired of all this UN crap. Israeli occupation is called so only because arabs and muslim countries have more members in the UN then democracies have. There's no difference between Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory then American occupation of British terrotory or Pakistani occupation of Indian territory. The only difference is that Israel took over these territories after being attacked and when in danger of being exterminated by racist anti-jewish forces.

 

[animepornstar]

The nation of Isreal was established by the UN after WWII, and I belive the UN is the establisher of international law. The only reason Isreal has expanded was to give them some breathing space from agressor nations like Syria and Lebannon.

so the settlements are some kind of outpost for the non-agressor nation israel against syria and lebannon, or what do you mean?

If the Arab community is so concerened about establishing a Palistinian state why don't the bordering Arab states pony up some land. Syria and Jordan have plenty.

yeah, give a piece of land that noboby wants in the desert. a typical american solution, right?

 

[G-Man]

What's so aggressive about the settlments? And they're not in Lebanon...

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by Huitzilopochtli
primitive?, In fact palestinians are widley regarded as a very educated people

You're are using the same tactic that Intifada.com is using. I'm talking about the Palestinians who were living all their lives in the stinking refugee camps. If you want to disprove it, talk about them, not about all Palestinians.

fanatics? sorry i thought zionists where very humane loving people that regard their neighbors as something more than cattle to be displaced and shot at.

Gee. It's like hearing the Palestinian TV. Those evil Zionists.

 

[G-Man]

Eli, can't you see it's our fault? If we would just stop fighting terrorists all Israelis were dead by now and the conflict was over!

 

[Sixchan]

I think this is a sensitive topic.
We really should believe people like G-Man who actually live where it's happening. I am generally in favour of a Palestinian state but G-man, Eli and other Isrealis and Palestinians know what is actually happening there better than any of us (if they don't, they really shouldn't be fighting in the near east).
We really should listen to them.

 

[G-Man]

I do support a Palestinian country... Israel is officialy supporting a Palestinian country - Sharon said so just a week ago. The problem is that Israel agreed to give the Palestinians "only" 96% of the area they originally wanted, and the Palestinians want everything. So when a final agreement was about to be signed the Palestinians started the intifada (this has been prooved in a book written by one of Arafat's ministers where he talks about the meeting in which Arafat decided to start the intifada) and now all the pacifists say that Israel should give the Palestinians all the areas they want... Dream on. We'll never surrender to terrorism

Also, I wanna ask you guys, do you really think Israel should take seriously something said by an orgenization that allows this to happen? These guys were attacking us using the Hizzbalah just a few days ago. I just hope no one thinks any more that the UN in neutral about things.

 

[Ashoka]

These guys were attacking us using the Hizzbalah just a few days ago. I just hope no one thinks any more that the UN in neutral about things.

Well, with Syria getting a seat on the UN Security Council today, I think the idea of neutrality is pretty much out the window.

Still, this horrid situation may actually result in the real opportunity to resolve this situation. Many arab states could be convinced to pressure the Palastinians to admit Isreal's right to exist (as G-man stated, none of them wants to give the Palestinians a home either.) Isreal accepts a Palestinian state. Jerusalem is set up as a special protectorate city with multi-faith government.

Isreal seems to mainly have a PR problem - too many media reports that look like kids throw rocks, Isreali soldiers respond with machine gun fire, killing 2-3 kids. While this may, over the last 40 years, have happened at some time, the real conflict is NOT that one-sided. IMHO - the error those of us living outside of the region make so often is in not understanding how complex the situation really is.

Peace -
Ashoka

 

[joespaniel]

There is one thing I want to know more about. There are Isreali settlements in areas that are completely Palestinian in population, and seem to be a source of great friction. I watched an NBC program about settlers who are guarded by an infantry battalion (which outnumbered the settlers greatly). That seems to be a waste of time. Do you ( G-Man or Eli) know about this and/or why these people are there ( I cant remember the name of the town from the story).

I just question the wisdom of this, meaning it almost gaurantees conflict.

 

[G-Man]

Most of the settlments were in the area before it was decided that the west bank and Gaza will become the PA (It was decided in 1994, and these areas are under Israeli control since 1967). These settlmets are mainly in the area of the Jordan river, where there's good land for farming.
The newer settlments are mainly temporary places, and are built by people that believe we can't run away from our own territory because of terrorism. About guarding the settlments, today every place in Israel is guarded. Police and army are always ready to defend any place in the country. Just in the last week these forces were able to stop three Palestinians that invaded an Israeli settlment and started shooting everywhere. Two days later a Palestinian started shooting with an automatic weapon in the center of Afula, a town not far from where I live. The Palestinian was shot by a guard that was there at the time, so although the Palestinian had enough ammo to kill hundreds only three were killed.

Ashoka - I don't think Israel will agree to loose full control of Jerusalem, and so will the Palestinians (They control the al-aqsa mosque). Maybe it would be better to go with Bush's plan - The western wall will be Israel's, al aqsa will be the Palestinian's, and all arab nehibourhoods in east Jerusalem will be Palestinian.
And I agree about what is shown in the news. Less then two weeks ago Palestinians activated a 100kg (220 pounds) bomb next to an Israeli army post. The same post was then hit by thousands of bullets and over 100 grenade. The soldiers in the post shot back and three armed Palestinians were killed. But CNN just said "Three Palestinians were killed in an incident".

 

[Sixchan]

I don't understand why the American Government cares so much about this. Its a bit late but I think anyone planning ahead when Isreal was formed would have seen fights coming. If the Americans cared so much, after WWII why didn't they give a piece of the U.S. to the Jews? America has plenty of America anyway. But like I said its a bit late for that. G-man, why couldn't the Isreali Government give Palestine the other 4%? You used 'only' sarcasticly, without sarcasm I could say: Its only 4%!
What's so special about it?

 

[G-Man]

These 4% are mainly areas holy to Jewdism. We'll never let them control our holy sites, especially after what they did to Josef's tomb. The other areas are small areas from which we can keep an eye on what's going on in Palestinian areas. We didn't do it in Lebanon, and look what happened there.

 

[GeneralHotRod]

By wannabepornstar:
yeah, give a piece of land that noboby wants in the desert. a typical american solution, right?

It's all desert you idiot.

Anyway, sixchan, the American government cares about this for several reasons.
1. There is a large Jewish population in the U.S. we have such a diverse population that there a segments of our population care about all parts of the rest of the world.
2. We feel somewhat guilty as a nation about what happened during WWII with the holocaust, therefore we feel the need to continually be concerned to make sure something like the Holocaust doesn't happen again. (Many Arabs would be happy to recreate the holocaust again if they could!)
3. American Jews don't feel the need for an independent state in america because they are not persecuted and can practice their religion freely here. It would be impossible to do that in a palistinian nation.

 

[G-Man]

Oh, well, here we only face stones

And we're in a friendly enviourment

So we can live in peace and without people murdered every day

 

[joespaniel]

OK, that helps me to understand. I agree you can't give in to terror as well. What a quagmire...

I hope the next round of peace talks is fully backed by my government, its time to end this. For Isreal AND Palestine.

I imagine it will be a long road...

 

[Eli]

Those 4% are the big settlement block, who containt ~150,000 people. It is impossible for Israel to remove them, that's why Israel offered land in the Halutza Sands, near the Gaza Strip. This is even better for the Pals since it will help them solve the demographic problems in the Gaza Strip.


The question is not why Israel doesnt give those 4% too, but why the Pals wont go for some compromise?
Until the recent peace talks both sides were only talking about justice, the Palestinians wanted everything and Israel wanted everything and both were sure that then justice will be achieved. It changed in Camp David, but unfortunately only one side stopped talking about justice and started talking about compromise.