The outdated stack of doom

[madscientist]

OK, a quick background. Playing BTS Monarch Marathon speed/Huge big/little map. Leader is Churchhill, I am tech leader and up to physics (I have rifling/military tradition/military science/steel) so I have all the military techs for the redcoat era. I declared war on my biggest rival Agustus (he has Monty and Darius Vassaled), took several good cities from him, saw a large Stack of Doom coming so I declared peace and rebuilt my army. I managed to bribe Qin into declaring on Agustus also. One important note, I declared on Agustus for 2 reasons 1) he was my chief rival and decided to try and take him out when I could and 2) the only oil reserve on the continent was between a Roman and Persian city.

Now where I am. I have alot of troops in a captured Roman border city (culture 20%), all my highly promoted redcoats (alot city raider III) and cavalry, 4 trebs and 1 cat but I just got steel so I sis not promte them yet. These troops are the core of my army. Agustus declared war on me again to reclaim lost territory and sends

THE ULTIMATE OUTDATED STACK OF DOOM: This includes 70 units as follows: 17 knights, 2 muskets, 12 elephants, 7 macemen, 7 Prats, 9 horse archers, 4 crossbows, 2 longbows, 2 pikes, 2 chariots, 2 cats, 4 trebs. It is right next to the city during my save. I retried numerous times but that stack has always taken out teh city and my army, those cats/trebs just do too much initial damage. I have tried to upgrade my trebs to cannons, but never get to use them before the assault. I have tried to attack with the trebs and cavalry (flank Agustus' trebs) but that doesn't work. I saved the game a restarted a new Churchhill assuming the game was lost as I crushed loosing such a valuable military force. Oh yes, Agustus was about 30% higher than me on the power graph, noone too close to me.

So I retried it again last night with a different strategy, a run and burned earth strat. THIS APPEARS TO HAVE WORKED!!! I left 2 sacrificial CGIII redcoats in the border city and sent the rest into Agustus territory, my goal is to raze some major Roman cities. I lost three former Roman cities back to Agustus, held one border city with Darius (who is more advanced than Agustus, he has airships). I captured 2 Major Roman cities and razed them including his holy Taoist city. I wanted to cripple his ability to build troops. I finally was able to build more redcoats/cav than prats/knights and my superior promoted troops had alot fewer casualties. I retook every lost border city, took one additional Persian city, and One additional roman city. Trying to take one last costal city before declaring peace. Also had to fight Qin as he backstabbed me (he has 3 colony vassals) but that was all seas warfare. Now I am the clear leader in power graph numbers.

SO I have a few questions about this
1) Has anyone ever seen a 70 unit stack of doom? I never saw it in warlords.
2) Was this scroched earth method a decent approach or could I have done this better? Razing 2 major (and useful) Roman cities were a waste, but I have no cultural problems now and why take cities Agustus will likely try to retake with another stack of doom?
3) Forts: I notice the lone oil reserve has a fort built on it. Does this act like a city and give the AI immediate access to oil without a well (meaning I don't have to build a well myself if I have the fort/oil squar ein my cultural border).

 

[MrCynical]

1) Has anyone ever seen a 70 unit stack of doom? I never saw it in warlords.

On aggressive AI they're the norm, not the exception. Even with normal AI they aren't that uncommom - I've even seen a stack of 75 battleships on one occasion.

2) Was this scroched earth method a decent approach or could I have done this better? Razing 2 major (and useful) Roman cities were a waste, but I have no cultural problems now and why take cities Agustus will likely try to retake with another stack of doom?

There are worse ways to play it. I'd rarely burn a city in a useful position, even in a situation like this though. My usual tactic in the face of this kind of attack is to withdraw troops except for a few city garrison units, let them take the city, wait until the move to attack another city (of course leaving a significant chunk of the stack behind), and then attack with a stack of rifles and cannons supported by airships that I've been massing while they were doing this.

Burning the city isn't that bad an option though, particularly if it has high foreign culture.

3) Forts: I notice the lone oil reserve has a fort built on it. Does this act like a city and give the AI immediate access to oil without a well (meaning I don't have to build a well myself if I have the fort/oil squar ein my cultural border).

Forts allow access to all land resources so yes, with the appropriate tech this will provide access to oil.

 

[madscientist]

On aggressive AI they're the norm, not the exception. Even with normal AI they aren't that uncommom - I've even seen a stack of 75 battleships on one occasion.



There are worse ways to play it. I'd rarely burn a city in a useful position, even in a situation like this though. My usual tactic in the face of this kind of attack is to withdraw troops except for a few city garrison units, let them take the city, wait until the move to attack another city (of course leaving a significant chunk of the stack behind), and then attack with a stack of rifles and cannons supported by airships that I've been massing while they were doing this.

Burning the city isn't that bad an option though, particularly if it has high foreign culture.



Forts allow access to all land resources so yes, with the appropriate tech this will provide access to oil.

Thanks the the reply. Glad what I did made some sense. I can war monger decently but it's generally never pretty.

So oil can be instantly accessed once I tech combustion cool. I can also better protect that lone well with well promoted English infantry (I'll have it by then) that is CG III (love protective trait). Also means that I cannot lose access to the oil through enemy spy activity since there is no improvement to destroy. All this said why would I ever want to build a well again??

I was wondering why the AI had a fort built on a mountain Stone reserve.

I am playing the normal AI, not agressive.

 

[patagonia]

It's more common to see stacks of obsolete troops now that the AI has lost its upgrade bonuses. They're easier to handle than stacks of up to date troops, but can still do a lot of damage. I don't think the AI knows to delete obsolete units so these stacks can be a major drag on their economy unless they suicide them at someone.

With CR units and most mounted units, it's a good idea to pull them out of a vulnerable city. They won't do a great job of defending it, but their promotions are perfect to kill the occupying AI troops when they take control.

One slightly cheesy way of draining an AI of units is to park your SoD outside a city and each turn kill all but the last defender. They'll reinforce with reserves from their core and you can repeat the process until the defending units dry up.

 

[oyzar]

You still have the save? Did you try what ABCivfan (i think that is his name) does and put all your units beside the city then retake it when his troops are there to take advantage of your city rider promos and the fact that you get to use colleteral against him and not the other way around?

 

[madscientist]

It's more common to see stacks of obsolete troops now that the AI has lost its upgrade bonuses. They're easier to handle than stacks of up to date troops, but can still do a lot of damage. I don't think the AI knows to delete obsolete units so these stacks can be a major drag on their economy unless they suicide them at someone.

With CR units and most mounted units, it's a good idea to pull them out of a vulnerable city. They won't do a great job of defending it, but their promotions are perfect to kill the occupying AI troops when they take control.

One slightly cheesy way of draining an AI of units is to park your SoD outside a city and each turn kill all but the last defender. They'll reinforce with reserves from their core and you can repeat the process until the defending units dry up.

I'll take the cheese, like I said non of my wars are ever pretty. War is one time I will utilize any dirty trick to abuse the AI. The more peacefull things like abusing the Cristo redentor for multiple civics in one turn I do not do.

 

[madscientist]

You still have the save? Did you try what ABCivfan (i think that is his name) does and put all your units beside the city then retake it when his troops are there to take advantage of your city rider promos and the fact that you get to use colleteral against him and not the other way around?

No I don't, I started overwriting the file once I saw this worked. Yes, I probably could have gotten this to work also. I still reclaimed the city, I just got a little side tracked razed the Roman commerce mecca and the roman holy Taoist city. Probably worked out best as I limited hid ability to send another outdated stack. Again, I am not a real refined war monger. I did show some restraint, Rome is still standing (that is good right??).

 

[travathian]

Once you get some machine gun units the out-dated stacks of doom mean nothing. I've seen a couple of them take on stacks of 70+ no problem. Of course this is BtS where they take no collateral damage.

 

[madscientist]

Once you get some machine gun units the out-dated stacks of doom mean nothing. I've seen a couple of them take on stacks of 70+ no problem. Of course this is BtS where they take no collateral damage.

This is good to know. I just finished physics so I guess Railroad would be next best tech to help finish off Agustus. How best to promote Machine guns to maximize defense (well, I guess that's all they do), assumeing I have three free promotions?

 

[Percy]

Assuming the army you're facing is indeed outdated, Drill promotions seem to me to be your best bet. Especially if you want a handful of units to fend off a lare numbers of assailants.

 

[madscientist]

Once you get some machine gun units the out-dated stacks of doom mean nothing. I've seen a couple of them take on stacks of 70+ no problem. Of course this is BtS where they take no collateral damage.

This is good to know. I just finished physics so I guess Railroad would be next best tech to help finish off Agustus. How best to promote Machine guns to maximize defense (well, I guess that's all they do), assumeing I have three free promotions?

 

[slobberinbear]

Sometimes the AI will go out of its way to use its outdated SoD.

I've had the AI send an intercontinental invasion fleet of galleons loaded with ancient and classical age units. The maintenance for such a force is mind-boggling. Oh, and the AI has no qualms about launching amphibious attacks without the Amphibious promotion ... makes me feel like a WWI machine gunner when the other side goes "over the top." Grim stuff.

 

[colony]

As Percy said, Drill works well, especially if you can reach Drill 3/4 easily. Being immune to collateral damage makes them more useful than Infantry even against pre-gunpoweder units in some circumstances. They will still get killed, but should last a lot longer than Redcoats would.

 

[madscientist]

As Percy said, Drill works well, especially if you can reach Drill 3/4 easily. Being immune to collateral damage makes them more useful than Infantry even against pre-gunpoweder units in some circumstances. They will still get killed, but should last a lot longer than Redcoats would.

Yes, I see that. Recoats offer no advantage to me in this game as I am dealing with alot of old junk thrown at me, not getting the 25% bonus versus gunpowder units. Don't get me wrong, CGIII redcoats out of the gate in any city (running theocracy) is great but no more advantage than any other protective rifleman. I have alot of city raider III redocats now (upgraded early units) but no great advantage now and I will likely be upgrading them to infantry before I see any significant number of muskets/rifles.

 

[axident]

OK, a quick background. Playing BTS Monarch Marathon speed/Huge big/little map. Leader is Churchhill, I am tech leader and up to physics (I have rifling/military tradition/military science/steel) so I have all the military techs for the redcoat era. I declared war on my biggest rival Agustus (he has Monty and Darius Vassaled), took several good cities from him, saw a large Stack of Doom coming so I declared peace and rebuilt my army. I managed to bribe Qin into declaring on Agustus also. One important note, I declared on Agustus for 2 reasons 1) he was my chief rival and decided to try and take him out when I could and 2) the only oil reserve on the continent was between a Roman and Persian city.

Now where I am. I have alot of troops in a captured Roman border city (culture 20%), all my highly promoted redcoats (alot city raider III) and cavalry, 4 trebs and 1 cat but I just got steel so I sis not promte them yet. These troops are the core of my army. Agustus declared war on me again to reclaim lost territory and sends

THE ULTIMATE OUTDATED STACK OF DOOM: This includes 70 units as follows: 17 knights, 2 muskets, 12 elephants, 7 macemen, 7 Prats, 9 horse archers, 4 crossbows, 2 longbows, 2 pikes, 2 chariots, 2 cats, 4 trebs. It is right next to the city during my save. I retried numerous times but that stack has always taken out teh city and my army, those cats/trebs just do too much initial damage. I have tried to upgrade my trebs to cannons, but never get to use them before the assault. I have tried to attack with the trebs and cavalry (flank Agustus' trebs) but that doesn't work. I saved the game a restarted a new Churchhill assuming the game was lost as I crushed loosing such a valuable military force. Oh yes, Agustus was about 30% higher than me on the power graph, noone too close to me.

So I retried it again last night with a different strategy, a run and burned earth strat. THIS APPEARS TO HAVE WORKED!!! I left 2 sacrificial CGIII redcoats in the border city and sent the rest into Agustus territory, my goal is to raze some major Roman cities. I lost three former Roman cities back to Agustus, held one border city with Darius (who is more advanced than Agustus, he has airships). I captured 2 Major Roman cities and razed them including his holy Taoist city. I wanted to cripple his ability to build troops. I finally was able to build more redcoats/cav than prats/knights and my superior promoted troops had alot fewer casualties. I retook every lost border city, took one additional Persian city, and One additional roman city. Trying to take one last costal city before declaring peace. Also had to fight Qin as he backstabbed me (he has 3 colony vassals) but that was all seas warfare. Now I am the clear leader in power graph numbers.

SO I have a few questions about this
1) Has anyone ever seen a 70 unit stack of doom? I never saw it in warlords.
2) Was this scroched earth method a decent approach or could I have done this better? Razing 2 major (and useful) Roman cities were a waste, but I have no cultural problems now and why take cities Agustus will likely try to retake with another stack of doom?
3) Forts: I notice the lone oil reserve has a fort built on it. Does this act like a city and give the AI immediate access to oil without a well (meaning I don't have to build a well myself if I have the fort/oil squar ein my cultural border).

On Agg AI you see this more often. Though the worst I've ever seen was when I was playing an Emperor game on BtS with Agg AI and Charlie sent no fewer than 3 monster SoDs all within a couple of turns of each other, each with something like 40 units including massive numbers of siege, against my garrison that survived the first 2 waves (barely, with reinforcements). I ceded the city for peace when the 3rd one reached my gates; my redlined crossbows and muskets would have just died anyway. Later on we'd war again and he'd capture a different city of mine, but massive drafting and building of rifles meant I captured it back and he gave me back my own city that his 3 SoDs captured in the first place.

 

[Sjaramei]

On aggressive AI they're the norm, not the exception. Even with normal AI they aren't that uncommom - I've even seen a stack of 75 battleships on one occasion.

For real? 75 Battleships.....

Thank god my AI's doesn't do that... (but i guess you guys play huge maps? maybe thats the reason for the insane stacks)

I've actually yet to see a killer stack like that, the biggest stacks i've faced is 20-30 units (and thats more than enough for me). How do you manage to let an AI make something like that?

 

[sveint]

Flanking

If you had about 10 flanking knights, his stack could have easily been reduced, despite any pikemen.

 

[SealJuice]

You need to IMMEDIATELY hit cntrl-W, add 20 tanks to your city, and then hit cntl-w again. Whew! That was close.

 

[ICNP]

I couldn't imagine holding off against any more than 10 in a stack. But thats why I play chieftain difficulty.

i wouldve just razed the cities too if they were heavily roman I wouldnt bother instating a gov.

 

[Mesousa]

Flanking

If you had about 10 flanking knights, his stack could have easily been reduced, despite any pikemen.

It doesn't make too much sense that knights indeed could have done it, but the cavalries he had couldn't. I think they ought to change it so that the flanking attack doesn't just work against siege units of the same era. The fact that your opponent has outdated siege shouldn't result in a disadvantage for you.