The Overcouncil isnt fun >:(

[franconbean]

When i play FFH, i always go for the Undercouncil. Why? because the all the overcouncil ever seems to do is ban mana types or open borders. The under council can set up smuggling rings (which effectively ammounts to +2 trade routes and +25% wealth in coastal cities), buy a great sage for 25 gold (25!) and buy nightwatch. What my main question here is: Why can the Overcouncil do cool stuff like this that doesn't come over as Evil or bad?

I realise that maybe i'm missing something here, but from what i've seen, Undercouncil is waay better than overcouncil (even allows you to smooth over the -2 relationship modifier for "you are neutral" if you are playing a neutral civ).

 

[DaveGold]

Why can the Overcouncil do cool stuff like this that doesn't come over as Evil or bad?

It's bit like Mommy stopping her kids from playing on the railway tracks. Spoilsport Mommy!

The overcouncil has some goodies. Defensive pacts can be a godsend. Free extra trade route is no worse than having to build smugglers ports. Liberty can be useful. Taking mana away from your opponents, or even yourself, can be useful too.

 

[Kyroshill]

Plus the Overcouncil can start and stop wars.... this can be key especially if you rule the OC. You can also influence trading with non-OC members.

 

[Emptiness]

I too prefer the Undercouncil, but the Overcouncil is not without its merits.

Spoiler example: :

There is an Overcouncil event that can give you two Radiant Guards - which is almost always better than getting two Nightwatch. Plus, you get them for free.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I find the other option from that event, giving Valor to all your disciple units, is generally better.

 

[Emptiness]

Didn't you improve Valor in your version? Anyway, I can see how that could be good, especially if you have a lot of Disciple units. If you don't happen to have another way to cast Blinding Light, however, then gaining that ability for free can be extremely handy.

 

[DaveGold]

There is an Overcouncil event that can give you two Radiant Guards - which is almost always better than getting two Nightwatch. Plus, you get them for free.

I must admit that I quite like the one nightwatch. I'm guessing this depends a lot on your style of play, and I restrict my use of shadows since they can be regular game winners against oblivious AI opponents.

I think it would be quite interesting if the leader of the undercouncil could pay money at Nox Noctis to take control of a random shadow unit, showing allegiance to the council rather than their home nation. It might make people think twice about using them, since at the moment they are far too powerful for their requirement, i.e. one Esus city and Guilds.

 

[travathian]

Guilds is an end game tech, separate from most military techs, and there are limits on the number of units.

As has been mentioned before, they are designed to help win the game in a decisive manner, not lead to further stagnation. If players have access to them, they most definitely should be using them to their advantage and working towards a victory.

 

[DaveGold]

Guilds is an end game tech, separate from most military techs, and there are limits on the number of units.

The limit on units is less important for shadows as they can pick their battles and gain fast experience, even in peace time. This means they are the units most capable of getting blitz and extra movement, allowing them to decimate the opposition ranks.

Guilds is also a mid game tech (5k) with a decent wonder, a production bonus, and a civic. Compare that to Rage and Precision. Marksmen should be good units but once you have Shadows the Marksmen become pretty much redundant.

As has been mentioned before, they are designed to help win the game in a decisive manner, not lead to further stagnation.

Unfortunately they seem too strong, especially since the AI is unable to defend against them. Since I've restricted my own use of Shadows I've had to use other valid strategies but it means the AI opponents have some threat, rather than having all their mages and catapults killed before war even starts.

 

[Fleme]

I too find the overcouncil somewhat "lame". In my last game I joined it only to have 3 successive votes to ban entropy mana (which passed on the first time with an unanimous vote) to be followed with 3 to ban death mana (which passed on the first vote as well).

Obviously it was nice to control it and have the good zealots clean out all the evil/neutral civs but later on I had to resign it to pursue a tower of mastery win. Btw off-topic, anyone find it cheesy that if you accumulate enough gold you can finish the tower on turn 1 or 2 of construction and don't have to worry about the repercussions? I think it should be a project instead of a national wonder.

 

[franconbean]

hmm... I guess you guys are right. I now think that i havent really given overcouncil a chance. Just that banning mana types was a real turn off for me.
And Fleme, I've been following your thread on the strategy and tips forum. Interesting stuff :3