The poll to stop any other hitler threads.

[Stexe]

1) Hitler was our enemy - so he was demonised (which didn't take a lot)

2) Stalin was our ally - so he was made to be a nice 'Uncle Joe' kind of guy

Extremely good point. That is probably why Hitler is not included (outside of the whole Germany issue). People view Hitler as "more evil" than Stalin because he was not our ally, yet we excuse Stalin for his crimes by hardly ever mentioning them. You see Hitler and neo-Nazis in the media all the time, but rarely here about Stalin anymore. Oh well, our society is too fixated on the propaganda of meda to understand facts.

 

[Stexe]

Maybe instead of asking why Hitler is not in the game we should be asking why Mao and Stalin are in the game? Any thoughts or ideas?

 

[jray]

I don't think the Hitler threads are ever going to stop. It's like those times when someone accidentally posts a personal email to a listserv, and then dozens of people start replying with "Unsubscribe" and then other people flame those people, and the whole thing gets out of control because everyone is answering their e-mail one message at a time without looking at the big picture.

The same will always be true of Hitler posts... more and more new users will come along every couple days posting new Hitler polls before they even think to look for threads like this.

Oh, and BTW I voted "yes", but it's not gonna happen because it's too politically incorrect (and thus bad for business).

 

[Wyz_sub10]

People, this conversation has been going on (...and on and on...) since Civ I.

- Hitler isn't in the game - and never will be in the game- because it would be a PR nightmare for Firaxis. Groups in the US would complain, the game couldn't be sold in Germany, there would be objections in many parts of Europe. Simply put - it would be terrible for business.

- Mao is in the game because he is, by far, the most recognizable Chinese leaders in Western society. Westerners - for the most part - don't know what Mao did to the Chinese people, and don't care what Mao did to the Chinese people. Just like they didn't care about Japan's invasion of China in WWII. But...Firaxis does recognize the fledgling Chinese market, which is why when the Chinese version was introduced, 'Communism' became 'Utopia' and 'Mao' became 'Chinese Leader'.

- Stalin is in the game because Westerners see him as a defeater of the Nazis. Sure, he was a "commie", but that's all people associate with Russia, anyway. Like Mao, a lot of Westerners neither know or care about the extent to which Stalin brutalized the people. Even many Russians do not know or accept this because of the tight reigns on information throughout most of the 20th century. (which is why Mao is so revered in China...or Kim in PRK).

So the arguing about Hitler's inclusion is purely, 100% academic. It. is. not. ever. going. to. happen.

There are LH mods out there for Hitler. Some are of very good quality. Go fill your boots.

 

[drkodos]

People, this conversation has been going on (...and on and on...) since Civ I.

- Hitler isn't in the game - and never will be in the game- because it would be a PR nightmare for Firaxis. Groups in the US would complain, the game couldn't be sold in Germany, there would be objections in many parts of Europe. Simply put - it would be terrible for business.

- Mao is in the game because he is, by far, the most recognizable Chinese leaders in Western society. Westerners - for the most part - don't know what Mao did to the Chinese people, and don't care what Mao did to the Chinese people. Just like they didn't care about Japan's invasion of China in WWII. But...Firaxis does recognize the fledgling Chinese market, which is why when the Chinese version was introduced, 'Communism' became 'Utopia' and 'Mao' became 'Chinese Leader'.

- Stalin is in the game because Westerners see him as a defeater of the Nazis. Sure, he was a "commie", but that's all people associate with Russia, anyway. Like Mao, a lot of Westerners neither know or care about the extent to which Stalin brutalized the people. Even many Russians do not know or accept this because of the tight reigns on information throughout most of the 20th century. (which is why Mao is so revered in China...or Kim in PRK).

So the arguing about Hitler's inclusion is purely, 100% academic. It. is. not. ever. going. to. happen.

There are LH mods out there for Hitler. Some are of very good quality. Go fill your boots.

^^^

Very well stated and I am in complete agreement. However, there will always be ignoramouses that cannot understand the absolute simplicity of the situation and will continue to goosestep to the sound of their own myopic inner voices.

 

[member66170]

Yes, from 1946 to 1989 the media were full of propaganda about how great Stalin and the Soviet Union were. Ha ha. Pull the other one, it's got bells on it.

Somehow propaganda has more effect when you brother dies in battle. You are more willing to hate someone who killed a friend, then you are to hate someone who has different political and socio-economic opinions than you.

Anyway, you still haven't answered my question:
Why should someone not be included in the game just because he was evil?

 

[drkodos]

Why should someone not be included in the game just because he was evil?

C'mon, it is not simply because of that issue, but if people feel the need to win a point and make themselves feel better by exposing some "hipocrisy" than go ahead. But there is no hipocrisy because it was not a decision based on evilness.


In fact, since I have never seen Firaxis make statement into why they make decision, I would argue for use of Occam's razor which suggests the reason has nothing at all to so with the reality of the people/leaders themselves, but what the real effects of including them would be. And that would be a negative backlash and potential loss of revenue. Period.



A question for you: How would it benefit sales of the game to include Adolf Hitler?


I am 100 percent certain that if including him would benefit sales and increase profits, he would be in. It is that simple.


Really, it is.

 

[member66170]

You are absolutely right, and that is why Hitler won't be in the game for the next 50 years. However, I am arguing that Hitler should be in the game, not that he will be.

 

[drkodos]

You are absolutely right, and that is why Hitler won't be in the game for the next 50 years. However, I am arguing that Hitler should be in the game, not that he will be.

Ok. Got it.

I respect your position. I disagree. But I do so respectfully.



Now, I need to lay-off these threads before I suffer some type of thrombosis.

 

[Armorydave]

However, I am arguing that Hitler should be in the game, not that he will be.

His inclusion in the game would almost certainly lower sales. That is a very compelling reason why he *shouldn't* be in the game and probably the only one Firaxis & T2 take into serious consideration.

 

[SpartanEvolved]

I just want an Agg/Chm leader. Hitler fits that bill perfectly (Alexander does too, but I think he is stuck with what he has).

 

[Öjevind Lång]

Somehow propaganda has more effect when you brother dies in battle. You are more willing to hate someone who killed a friend, then you are to hate someone who has different political and socio-economic opinions than you.

By now, it would be your uncle dying in battle, or your granduncle or even your great-granduncle. I doubt that most people would have very strong feelings if that was the only issue.

Anyway, you still haven't answered my question:
Why should someone not be included in the game just because he was evil?

I have lost count of all the posts I have made in these forums explaining why Hitler shouldn't and won't be included, and it simply is no use. You will not change my mind; I will not change your mind. I have also asked people why including Hitler is so important to them, but that doesn't lead anywhere either. I'm out of this discussion.

 

[Malleus]

It is quite disconcerting to me how almost half of you would want Hitler to be in the game. The point some of you make that Hitler was as brutal and mentally deranged as Mao and Stalin and should consequently be in the game, is simply not valid.

Yes, all of them are responsible for killing a lot of people. But unlike Mao and Stalin, Hitler is the epitome of racism and intolerance. Putting him in any game would be a personal and direct slap in the face of European and Jewish people.

If anyone can give a sensible account on why Hitler should be in the game, I am all ears. Frankly, I believe such explanation does not exist.

 

[Stexe]

It is quite disconcerting to me how almost half of you would want Hitler to be in the game. The point some of you make that Hitler was as brutal and mentally deranged as Mao and Stalin and should consequently be in the game, is simply not valid.

Yes, all of them are responsible for killing a lot of people. But unlike Mao and Stalin, Hitler is the epitome of racism and intolerance. Putting him in any game would be a personal and direct slap in the face of European and Jewish people.

If anyone can give a sensible account on why Hitler should be in the game, I am all ears. Frankly, I believe such explanation does not exist.

Was Hitler influencial to history? Did he (or people under the figure head) bring the German people out of the depression? Yes and yes. Therefore he should be in the game. This isn't a game about ethics no matter how much we debate them. I've decided to stop talking about Mao and Stalin anymore (because everyone has said it to death) and I'm just focusing on the facts. It is a game, I don't see why people get bent out of shape over things in it. Slavery? Fascism? Razing? Sacrifical Altars? Big deal. It is a game and it represents REAL LIFE AND REAL CIVILIZATIONS. If you don't like it, don't use it in your game, but it should still be included. The only reason they do not put Hitler in the game is because of close minded people who want to argue the ethics behind it and the controversy and backlash of less sales. I'm sure if there was a large market for people to play as Hitler, larger than the anti-Hitler market, it would be included. Now I'm not "pro-Hitler" but I like representing history in its fullest and truist forms.

 

[drkodos]

Was Hitler influencial to history? Did he (or people under the figure head) bring the German people out of the depression? Yes and yes. Therefore he should be in the game. This isn't a game about ethics no matter how much we debate them. I've decided to stop talking about Mao and Stalin anymore (because everyone has said it to death) and I'm just focusing on the facts. It is a game, I don't see why people get bent out of shape over things in it. Slavery? Fascism? Razing? Sacrifical Altars? Big deal. It is a game and it represents REAL LIFE AND REAL CIVILIZATIONS. If you don't like it, don't use it in your game, but it should still be included. The only reason they do not put Hitler in the game is because of close minded people who want to argue the ethics behind it and the controversy and backlash of less sales. I'm sure if there was a large market for people to play as Hitler, larger than the anti-Hitler market, it would be included. Now I'm not "pro-Hitler" but I like representing history in its fullest and truist forms.

Dude, do you understand the concept of profit and loss and how perception can effect that relationship? Do you have trouble accepting a lot things that do not fit your monorail like paradigms?


Are you friends with Tom Metzger? Gerry Lincoln?

 

[Stexe]

Dude, do you understand the concept of profit and loss and how perception can effect that relationship? Do you have trouble accepting a lot things that do not fit your monorail like paradigms?


Are you friends with Tom Metzger? Gerry Lincoln?

Obviously I do understand the concept of profit and loss when I clearly stated:

The only reason they do not put Hitler in the game is because of close minded people who want to argue the ethics behind it and the controversy and backlash of less sales.

*Note: Bold added to show point*

Also, the fact you attribute my actions to white supremacists is insulting and demeaning. I have many non-white friends and friends of various religions, including Jewish. This isn't about the person (Hitler) to me, it is about the hypocrasy behind not including him.

 

[drkodos]

Obviously I do understand the concept of profit and loss when I clearly stated:

*Note: Bold added to show point*

Also, the fact you attribute my actions to white supremacists is insulting and demeaning. I have many non-white friends and friends of various religions, including Jewish. This isn't about the person (Hitler) to me, it is about the hypocrasy behind not including him.

Dude, they were questions. There was no attribution. Do not read into it what is not there. I did not make any statements saying what I thought one way or another, but to be frank, you continued insistance makes it easy for someone to think exactly that.

If that is not the case, then perhaps you should reconsider what you post and the level at which you choose to continue fighting for his inclusion.

And, how lucky for all those non-whites and Jewish folk that you have choosen them to be friends. Do you not realize that one statement alone is a rascist one? It is very passive-aggressively rascist. Now, I am not calling you one, for I do not know, but I am telling you directly that the statement you posted is absolutely a rascist statement.

There is a clear and consice line between talking about a person and talking about their actions. I am not talking about you, the person. I am speaking to your actions and words. There is a differnce. A big one.

Your words and recent statement are those of a person that is a racist. So,if you are not one, I suggest you stop using them

You have been Borated, pal.

 

[Malleus]

Was Hitler influencial to history? Did he (or people under the figure head) bring the German people out of the depression? Yes and yes. Therefore he should be in the game. This isn't a game about ethics no matter how much we debate them. I've decided to stop talking about Mao and Stalin anymore (because everyone has said it to death) and I'm just focusing on the facts. It is a game, I don't see why people get bent out of shape over things in it. Slavery? Fascism? Razing? Sacrifical Altars? Big deal. It is a game and it represents REAL LIFE AND REAL CIVILIZATIONS. If you don't like it, don't use it in your game, but it should still be included. The only reason they do not put Hitler in the game is because of close minded people who want to argue the ethics behind it and the controversy and backlash of less sales. I'm sure if there was a large market for people to play as Hitler, larger than the anti-Hitler market, it would be included. Now I'm not "pro-Hitler" but I like representing history in its fullest and truist forms.

If you go on regurgitating those same uneducated points, then we will never be able to debate this very far. Let's take a look at the "facts" as you call them:

The only thing you have going for you is that Hitler DID gring Germany out of the depression, albeit only to take it down with him into chaos and disarray in a few decades. That is impressive.

He was also NOT a great military leader. His generals were capable, he himself was a mere corporal, blinded by hatred and lunacy. So he shouldn't be in the game for his military merits either.

As regards your account on the issues already included in the game:

- Slavery: still exists amongst certain African tribes, was the norm of society for thousands of years, so it is in the game for a reason.

- Fascism: now this is a vicious circle. Why is nationalism in the game? How about communism? More evil has been done in the name of democracy than any of those combined. Should we just eliminate all forms of government from the game according to that converted logic of yours?

- Sacrifial altars: see above, slavery.

It would be a different story if you added other elements that are truly offensive. Would it not be great if you could rape every woman and child in every city you conquer and the camera would zoom in so you could see it? In slow motion? How about torturing your enemies? Why can't I crash my aeroplanes into buildings and kill 5000 people?

They should have included those elements in the game, because they are true. It is historically accurate, right?

Finally you get to your real point, belittling and insulting the victims of the Holocaust and their families by calling them "close minded".

I don't even know what to say here. I am just dumbfounded. Unbelievable.

All products that our society produces are reflections of that society's norms and rules. What is considered right and civil. In our society (and when I say society, I mean the WORLD), Adolf Hitler does not fit in. He shouldn't. Luckily there are less people like you and more of us "close-minded" who do not want to see his name or face anywhere.

 

[Mîtiu Ioan]

- Slavery: still exists amongst certain African tribes, was the norm of society for thousands of years, so it is in the game for a reason.

Honestly - I belive that slavery is not only a marginal, far-located and somehow exotic aspect of our "modern" life& society.

Maybe not a "clasical slavery", but another form of slavery ( women traffic for prostitution, immigrant workers and so on ) are increased dramatically in our nice&globalized world ...

Regards

 

[Stexe]

Dude, they were questions. There was no attribution. Do not read into it what is not there. I did not make any statements saying what I thought one way or another, but to be frank, you continued insistance makes it easy for someone to think exactly that.

If that is not the case, then perhaps you should reconsider what you post and the level at which you choose to continue fighting for his inclusion.

And, how lucky for all those non-whites and Jewish folk that you have choosen them to be friends. Do you not realize that one statement alone is a rascist one? It is very passive-aggressively rascist. Now, I am not calling you one, for I do not know, but I am telling you directly that the statement you posted is absolutely a rascist statement.

There is a clear and consice line between talking about a person and talking about their actions. I am not talking about you, the person. I am speaking to your actions and words. There is a differnce. A big one.

Your words and recent statement are those of a person that is a racist. So,if you are not one, I suggest you stop using them

You have been Borated, pal.

How is that a racist statement at all? It is simply factual information, not racism. I'm providing information about myself, a racist would probably not have friends of different ethnic or religious backgrounds. Also, considering you asked if I am friends with known white supremists (which I had to do a Google search to find out who they were) implies you assume I am racist. It is extremely insulting to call someone a racist, especially when your grounds for assumption are that I want Hitler included in the game. I guess that makes everyone of the 107+ people who want Hitler in the game a racist?

By the way, if I asked you an offensive question that implied something you're not, I'm sure you'd get bent out of shape too. But I won't stoop to that level.