The poll to stop any other hitler threads.

[Chazcon]

Wow, flame fest.

The fuel that keeps this flame alive is the simple fact that Hitler lived too recently in the past.

In one hundred years no one will blink when he is put into a game. But right now, all the evil to mankind that was instigated by Hitler has not had enough years to dim the memories and feelings of many, many people.

There are people alive who lived and suffered during WW2, still.

Plus, some people like to bring attention to themselves in a public anonymus forum such as this. How better to accomplish this, than by picking a sensitive subject matter. So much waste of energy. I vote this thread be deleted, and any 'Hitler' thread be deleted immediately before it becomes another such wasted energy sink.

 

[AfterShafter]

Wow, flame fest.

The fuel that keeps this flame alive is the simple fact that Hitler lived too recently in the past.

...

There are people alive who lived and suffered during WW2, still.

So, when was Stalin around again?

 

[a4phantom]

I voted no. Not because Hitler was unmitigated evil (Stalin, Mao), but becaue he wasn't a very impressive leader and didn't last very long for a dictator. Hitler's achievements were convincing an antisemitic nation that their problems were the Jews' fault and losing a war. Not only did he slaughter his country's people like the other two jerks, but he also led his country to defeat and ruin. The vast majority of Germans are ashamed of Hitler and either feel guilty about that era of their history or outraged that anyone would draw a connection between them and the Nazis. Stalin was a monster but he won the biggest war in history and industrialized and modernized (technically, not civicly) Russia. Mao invented (or had a large hand in inventing) modern guerilla warfare and ruled over an independent China for the first time since the Europeans moved in, and did a huge modernization of the Chinese economy and military, though at a brutal cost to the population. These two schmucks may have been as brutal and immoral as Hitler, but their leadership achievements far outstrip his.

 

[Stexe]

Rats...I was so agitated by the idea that some people think its ok for Hitler to be in the game I mispelled "if" and "too". sorry about that.

I think its been agreed that Hitler will NEVER be in the game, but the question I suppose is should he have been. I don't see how anyone can honestly think it wouldn't be offensive to others. I'm not jewish, and I'm not european or from european descent and I still think that its remarkably offensive. Yes, other leaders have done horrible things, but Hitler tried to commit genocide.
His name has become practically synonymous with evil, and his image is associated nowadays with White supremacists. I don't think any of the current leaders in the vanilla game at least cause such a negative reaction on such a large amount of people.

That is why there is an "EDIT" button. Also, I don't see why you're repulsed if Hitler is in the game but not other horrorific leaders who commited crimes. Again back to the same arguement.

 

[Stexe]

I find it amusing that you are EXTREMELY insulted by someone calling you a racist yet you continue your callous disregard for people who are offended by the Nazi Holocaust. Unless of course, you are in the camp of Iran's esteemed leader and believe it all was a hoax.

So many people on the internet like to argue that they have superior information. They say their studies have shown the popular opinion to be somewhat skewed and they know the real truth from their extensive research. Somehow they assume nobody else knows anything on the subject and we all just mindlessly believe what we are spoonfed on TV. They are exposing their own ignorance more than anything else.

It is not enlightened or scholarly to suggest Hitler was a great leader of Germany. It is just ignorant. It shows your own bias and your own desire to mark yourself a free an independent thinker. Except the thoughts are dumb. Germany was a wreck when he took over and a wreck when he killed himself. What did he accomplish? He conquered a bunch of people that couldn't defend themselves and then got crushed when the world's two biggest powers got involved.

I mean no disrespect for people who suffered from any warcrime, you're reading me all wrong. I mean that because they are offended about something does not give grounds to not include something of significance. If you are offended that George W. Bush became president, you don't omit it from history books because you find it personally offensive. Hitler was not an amazing leader, but he did make a mark on history and during his reign he did accomplish many of his goals. There are other leaders in the game who left their Civilization in ruins by the end of their reign, yet they are included (Capac was one of the last leaders of the Incan people before they all died).

 

[Stexe]

This is not a forum about open discussion, dude. There is a time and place, my man. And this is neither.

Please. You are far too bright and wise to think that every forum is a proper place in which to discuss anything under the sun.

Freedom of speech does not give people the right to yell fire in a theatre when there is none. There are rules of decorum and protocol that need be followed in civil society.

Thus the advent of Godwin's law, sir, regarding message board postings.


#30

When is the proper time to discuss it then? I see no other place to discuss topics for Civilization like this. As for Freedom of Speech, it does not allow people to yell "fire" in a theatre, but as long as it isn't directly offensive to someone it is pretty much fair game. Although, this board is privately owned so it isn't under freedom of speech by any law.

Do you hold open discussions about your sexuality around or with young children?
Do you speak openly about your proclivities in front of strangers?

I don't see how that is relevant to this topic at all. This is an optional choice to read, not something you're pressing upon someone as you would if you openly spoke to them as in your example.

Back on topic though, is anyone against including Hitler as a playable character in a scenario that would ship with Civilization? The only valid arguement I see against Hitler is that they consider him not a Great Leader which is a plausible assumption. However, if Hitler was in a scenario he wouldn't need to be a Great Leader, just someone influencial to that scenario context.

 

[a4phantom]

I mean no disrespect for people who suffered from any warcrime, you're reading me all wrong. I mean that because they are offended about something does not give grounds to not include something of significance. If you are offended that George W. Bush became president, you don't omit it from history books because you find it personally offensive. Hitler was not an amazing leader, but he did make a mark on history and during his reign he did accomplish many of his goals. There are other leaders in the game who left their Civilization in ruins by the end of their reign, yet they are included (Capac was one of the last leaders of the Incan people before they all died).

Capac wasn't a bad leader that I know of, his kids ruined things along with an unforseeable invasion by enemies with thousands of years of technological superiority and horses. If we were suddenly conquered by aliens wielding unimaginable weapons with unpierceable armor, it wouldn't be our leaders' fault that we lost. Montezuma admittedly blew it for the Aztecs, but who else would Sid's audience recognize? Germany has had many famous leaders, so resorting to a loser like Hitler wasn't necessary. Personally I would have gone with Charlemagne instead of Frederick, but Charlemagne is a French national hero as well.

 

[a4phantom]

Back on topic though, is anyone against including Hitler as a playable character in a scenario that would ship with Civilization? The only valid arguement I see against Hitler is that they consider him not a Great Leader which is a plausible assumption. However, if Hitler was in a scenario he wouldn't need to be a Great Leader, just someone influencial to that scenario context.

I don't see a huge problem with that, although the scope of the scenario would have to be game-freezingly massive, anything less than the entire European war would probably have the German leader be Rommel. Like I said, I don't oppose Hitler's inclusion in Civ because he was vile, I just don't think he warrents it. I would say the same about making Saddam a leader for the Arabs, his evil wouldn't disqualify him, he's just not that impressive. Same with Kim Jong Il, Tojo, etc. Russians and Chinese may remember suffering and fear under Stalin and Mao, but many also remember national glory and pride. Very few Germans remember Hitler with even mixed fondness. At least I certainly hope not. The Germans I've known have been extremely offended when people mentioned Hitler as in any way a symbol of Germany.

 

[Öjevind Lång]

First off, if you pick apart any person you will find flaws. I wouldn't really include Hitler for his military skills as he did lose and turned on his ally. He did make a few good plans early in his campaign, but overall he was not very successful.

These comments are so clueless I can't resist holding them up.

"If you pick apart any person you will find flaws." Yes, I have always thought that Hitler was somewhat flawed. But then, that's probably because I am close-minded.

As for Hitler's "military skills", they were nonexistent. He told his armies to attack Poland, Denmark and a number of other smaller countries that didn't stand a chance against the big, well-equipped and well-trained Nazi army. Then he (or rather his generals) managed to beat the French, who were numerically inferior, less well equipped and demoralized after having lost two million men in the *First* World War. He also beat the British Expeditionary Force: the British did not have conscription before the war broke out, and in 1940 they had had not yet got together an army to match the Nazi army in size, equipment and training - those things take time. Then H. attacked some more small countries. And then he attacked the gigantic Soviet Union and had his arse handed to him.

As people may have gathered, I do not think much of Hitler in any respect; but the claim that he was "a great war leader" simply leaves me baffled. He was a Pied Piper, that's what he was.

 

[jan33]

and the best of all of this is that hitler wasent even german

 

[member66170]

This is not a forum about open discussion, dude. There is a time and place, my man. And this is neither.

Do you hold open discussions about your sexuality around or with young children?
Do you speak openly about your proclivities in front of strangers?


Please. You are far too bright and wise to think that every forum is a proper place in which to discuss anything under the sun.

Freedom of speech does not give people the right to yell fire in a theatre when there is none. There are rules of decorum and protocol that need be followed in civil society.

Thus the advent of Godwin's law, sir, regarding message board postings.


#30

First of all, I believe that Godwin's Law does not apply in this forum, specialy in threads regarding Hitler

All of your examples are cases of 'Wrong thing, wrong time". However, as a board forum is mostly passive (that is you read something when you want, and you are not forced to hear it) there can be no wrong time.

 

[Raion]

Well, I vote NO!
No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No!

When there are still some who want to follow him, claiming this kind of thinking, it is because they wish me harm in the future and the kind of attitude that leads up to Armageddon in the World, and their version of avoiding it. Either it will be or it will not be, but there are also others in this World who claim a Great Many Things (ideas) also that claim they have more knowledge of future events than anybody else.

The Pope is not put in this game because of certain reasons also, and one should read the Papal Prophecies according to whatever person decided that it was reading that way. The same way with The Bible, and the person that is interpreting that piece of literature. It is their opinion, and humans are fallible, so if all people were living to the way that Jesus mentioned to live, none of it would have happened. To me it is more of a Warning about what can happen, then having crazy insane people decide that it is time for your life to go -- just because they stated that they know more than you do, except really do they know more? Not to me. It is in the Interpretation of whatever it is that they infer to read into The Bible, the Papal Prophecies, the World, and the End of Time and of this World.

They are simply to me in my opinion -- wrong. They wish ill things upon me, and like Hilter, they have no Right nor Freedom to do that kind of thinking in this Universe. They assume too much, and always assume that only they are Correct. Avoid these people, because they are the ones who are attempting "Mind Control" and "Mind Control" belongs only to our Creator -- God -- if that is what He intended to do, which is not what he stated. He stated -- Free Will, and with Free Will I definitely Vote NO!

Now, be gone!

 

[drkodos]

First of all, I believe that Godwin's Law does not apply in this forum, specialy in threads regarding Hitler

They absolutley apply in that it is a tactic to create conflict and bad feeling.

All of your examples are cases of 'Wrong thing, wrong time". However, as a board forum is mostly passive (that is you read something when you want, and you are not forced to hear it) there can be no wrong time.

I refer you (Lord Olleus) to the game of chess and it's concept of time to indicate there is more than one layer to the understanding of timeliness.

It is the wrong time in the sense that the era we live in is still electrified and polarized by the mere mentioning of his name.


Would you name your kid Adolph and then tell people their negative reaction to it is unwarranted? Not in this time period you wouldn't, unless you were purposely looking to cause distress in people, which is the underlying reason people have for starting these threads to begin with. (and by "YOU" I do not mean you directly, but any person.....ok?)

Thus, Godwins' law applies fully and completely and this thread and all subsequent Nazi threads should be tanked, thrown into off-topic at best, and the scabs should be allowed time (there's that word again) to heal.

 

[hitlerII]

and the best of all of this is that hitler wasent even german

This is also a very true and obvious statement - he was Austrian but since Austria never had an empire (to my knowledge) he will never be included outside a mod/scenario that involves either defeating him or allowing him to win WW2. Oh i forgot one more thing: Adolf Hitler wasn't his real name!

 

[drkodos]

This is also a very true and obvious statement - he was Austrian but since Austria never had an empire (to my knowledge) he will never be included outside a mod/scenario that involves either defeating him or allowing him to win WW2. Oh i forgot one more thing: Adolf Hitler wasn't his real name!

You should brush up on Kaisertum Österreich.

Ever hear of the Hapsburg's, perhaps?

 

[Öjevind Lång]

This is also a very true and obvious statement - he was Austrian but since Austria never had an empire (to my knowledge) he will never be included outside a mod/scenario that involves either defeating him or allowing him to win WW2. Oh i forgot one more thing: Adolf Hitler wasn't his real name!

Austria had a *huge* empire until 1918 - the Danube Monarchy, or, as it was officially known after 1867, Austria-Hungary. At the time of its dissolution in 1918 it encompassed the present-day countries of Austria, Hungary, the Czech Republic and Slovakia; big chunks of Poland, western Ukraine and western Belorussia; Transylvania, Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia-Hercegovina and northern Italy. In older times, Belgium, the Netherlands, Burgundy, Switzerland and much other territory had also belonged to it.

 

[Öjevind Lång]

You should brush up on Kaisertum Österreich.

Ever hear of the Hapsburg's, perhaps?

LOLOL. We were both busy responding at exactly the same time!

 

[Stexe]

Well, I vote NO!
No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No!

When there are still some who want to follow him, claiming this kind of thinking, it is because they wish me harm in the future and the kind of attitude that leads up to Armageddon in the World, and their version of avoiding it. Either it will be or it will not be, but there are also others in this World who claim a Great Many Things (ideas) also that claim they have more knowledge of future events than anybody else.

The Pope is not put in this game because of certain reasons also, and one should read the Papal Prophecies according to whatever person decided that it was reading that way. The same way with The Bible, and the person that is interpreting that piece of literature. It is their opinion, and humans are fallible, so if all people were living to the way that Jesus mentioned to live, none of it would have happened. To me it is more of a Warning about what can happen, then having crazy insane people decide that it is time for your life to go -- just because they stated that they know more than you do, except really do they know more? Not to me. It is in the Interpretation of whatever it is that they infer to read into The Bible, the Papal Prophecies, the World, and the End of Time and of this World.

They are simply to me in my opinion -- wrong. They wish ill things upon me, and like Hilter, they have no Right nor Freedom to do that kind of thinking in this Universe. They assume too much, and always assume that only they are Correct. Avoid these people, because they are the ones who are attempting "Mind Control" and "Mind Control" belongs only to our Creator -- God -- if that is what He intended to do, which is not what he stated. He stated -- Free Will, and with Free Will I definitely Vote NO!

Now, be gone!

WHAAAAAAAT? This sounds like the rant of an insane mad man and a fanatical Christian all tied into one. You go from talking about voting "no" for Hitler being included in the game and then that people (who I assume want Hitler in the game? or atleast follow Hitler) want to "harm you," followed by Armageddon and predictions of the future? What the hell are you talking about? "The Pope" is not a singular person and is mainly a religious leader, not really a true political power, although I could see certain Pope figure heads included in scenarios.

What does the "Papal Prophecies" have anything to do with Civilization? Yes, humans are fallible and this is just a forum for opinions so no one has a "correct" interpretation of the right answer, but I don't see how that pertains to religion in this context. Also, Jesus was a human (unless you believe him to be God or some BS like that) so he is just as fallible as the rest of us (sure life would be better if everyone followed the philosophy of Buddha / Jesus / Gandhi, but not even the people who breach it [the Catholic Church] follow it).

So including Hitler in a game about history is a "Warning" of what can happen? Huh? What does that have to do with "crazy insane people deciding that it is time for your life to go"? That makes NO sense at all. I don't understand how any of your comments make sense in this context (or any other context). How does including Hitler in the game make people wish ill things on you? Still not making any sense there. It is hilarious how you bring "Mind Control" in and then state that because "God" says we have "Free Will" you choose to vote 'NO.'

I think you got lost; this is a forum about Civilization and specifically Hitler in the game, not forum for the word of some crazed religious rant.

Seriously though, your post boarders on schizophrenic behavior (I've had a schizophrenic grandmother and I know a schizophrenic person who I talk to occasionally) and you should see something about that.

 

[drkodos]

Seriously though, your post boarders on schizophrenic behavior (I've had a schizophrenic grandmother and I know a schizophrenic person who I talk to occasionally) and you should see something about that.

Politics and religion no doubt make strange bedfellows of some of us as I am completely in your camp on this one.


I had to break out my special decoder ring to understand the real message in his post. Dig down deep into your cereal box to get your own and all will be made more lucid.

 

[Stexe]

They absolutley apply in that it is a tactic to create conflict and bad feeling.

Would you name your kid Adolph and then tell people their negative reaction to it is unwarranted? Not in this time period you wouldn't, unless you were purposely looking to cause distress in people, which is the underlying reason people have for starting these threads to begin with. (and by "YOU" I do not mean you directly, but any person.....ok?)

Thus, Godwins' law applies fully and completely and this thread and all subsequent Nazi threads should be tanked, thrown into off-topic at best, and the scabs should be allowed time (there's that word again) to heal.

We are not creating this topic to create conflict or bad feeling, just because you have some underlaying opposition to our view doesn't mean it is intended to be maleful.

If I had a kid named Adolph I would tell people that their negative reaction is unwarranted because they are ignorant and mistaken. Also, your examples do not pertain to this situation at all (as stated above).

Godwin's law does not apply to this thread at all. You claim that "Nazi" threads (I assume you think that because we are discussing if Hitler should be in the game that this is a Nazi thread) should be removed or thrown off topic. That statement alone proves you're not willing to have an open and logical discussion about a valid topic. You simply do not wish to hear any other people's opinions and it shows.

As for "time to heal," what about all the crimes others have (and still are) commited/commiting that are still in the game? Should we wait until all Slavery is gone for a 100 years before including it in the game?