The problem of a weak Germany

[AnotherPacifist]

Almost 8/10 games recently Germany collapses in mid game. Super strong France and Netherlands seem to be the rule and when Germany respawns it's usually as a vassal of the these 2 or Russia. Can we please not have Hamburg be built? All that good land to the east and south of Berlin should be occupied and this will definitely solve the "problem."

 

[kairob]

I agree entirely with a weak Germany being a problem, I think its more that they have stability trouble than being weak at first, but they are defonatly weak when they respawn.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Dunno about BTS, but is is not so in Warlords, where Germany is usually a quite strong power:

Note German parts of South America and Africa, as well as that stack. Russia had declared independence from Germany not so far ago. Maybe in BTS the Dutch presence keeps Germany weaker?

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Maybe I should rephrase: I would like France, Germany AND Russia to survive at least until the era of World Wars (after defensive pacts). Spain, for example, never collapses. All my recent games since the last 2 patches either France or Germany collapses, and Netherlands becomes a superpower afterwards which is not very historical.

 

[Úmarth]

I find that Germany goes both ways. About half of the time it is partition by France, the Netherlands and Russia but the other half it takes Italy and Russia and does really well. I think the real problem is the tendency of the Netherlands to become a European land power, I often see a Dutch Germany, Italy and even Greece when really they should never go beyond Amsterdam. My solution would be to give them less starting units and somehow make them settle South Africa and Southeast Asia faster.

 

[flaming_iles]

I think the real problem is the tendency of the Netherlands to become a European land power, I often see a Dutch Germany, Italy and even Greece when really they should never go beyond Amsterdam.

I think the Dutch becoming a land power is because their open borders threshold is so low. They usually have OB agreements with all their neighbours, so when any civ collapses, they find it easier to get an army across Europe to capture the independent cities than any other civ would. Its not rare for me to see a Dutch Athens or Byzantium.

As for the Germans, I think their fate is decided after the first few hundred years of them being around. If they manage to produce enough units (and get enough luck) to win wars against France/Russia/Rome/Greece, then they will be powerful. Otherwise, they won't be significant at all.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Maybe I should rephrase: I would like France, Germany AND Russia to survive at least until the era of World Wars

I don't. I like European wars and AI-on-AI action.

 

[Rod]

I like the idea of Umarth to let Netherlands completely ignore Europe and focus entirely on the Caribbean Sea , South Africa and South-East Asia.

I also don't like to see a Dutch Athens, Byzantium, Venetia etc .. and I see this way too often.

Next to the fact that Netherlands would get the resources of Caribbean and the South-East Asia online (currently they are almost always wasted) the Netherlands would also pose a threat to Japan, which too often is completely unchallenged..

 

[kairob]

I pretty much never see the Dutch in Indonesia, they get New York/Amsterdam and South Africa but no Indonesia...

 

[mushyman]

I agree, Indonesia and Australia are usually irritatingly uncolonised in the modern era.

Although I did once see a Netherlands with four Australian cities before America even spawned. That was very unusual though.

 

[onedreamer]

I find that Germany goes both ways. About half of the time it is partition by France, the Netherlands and Russia but the other half it takes Italy and Russia and does really well. I think the real problem is the tendency of the Netherlands to become a European land power, I often see a Dutch Germany, Italy and even Greece when really they should never go beyond Amsterdam. My solution would be to give them less starting units and somehow make them settle South Africa and Southeast Asia faster.

I've never seen Netherlands becoming a land power in Europe, actually if ONE civ is more/most likely to do it is Germany. So far I have witnessed ONLY Germany conquering most Europe. The other Civs don't even try to do it (I assume it's a scripted strategy) and many times France is conquered by Germany and Russia collapses because of wars with it. Also, I've never seen Germany collapsing...

Note: we must also consider the start, in fact Germany performs muuuch better without Greece and Rome, IE 600 AD Start.

 

[Úmarth]

Well, you must be playing a different game to me :S

 

[Jet]

I started playing again at 1.8 and Germany has been OK, even strong.

 

[onedreamer]

Well, you must be playing a different game to me :S

Ok, but I really fail to see how Netherlands, "in your game", becomes a Euro land power since even when I play the Vikings (often) I witness them being extremely defensive and too intent colonizing outside Europe. On the other hand Germany is much more aggressive... unless we're talking of collapsed civs. But as I said I've never seen Germany collapsing. Mind you, in my last Viking game I razed Berlin to make it collapse and it didn't !! What happened was that Kaunas rebelled, and Germany still had 2 other cities in Poland and Romania.

 

[Rhye]

I started playing again at 1.8 and Germany has been OK, even strong.

what is it?
1.180? 1.181?

 

[Jet]

I played a few games with 1.180 and a few with 1.181.

 

[Úmarth]

Ok, but I really fail to see how Netherlands, "in your game", becomes a Euro land power since even when I play the Vikings (often) I witness them being extremely defensive and too intent colonizing outside Europe.

Erm, what? I'm just saying my observations from playing RFC, and I note that other people have observed the same. Why would I lie? Jeez, stop trying to turn everything into a debate.

 

[Rhye]

the dutch are already told not to expand in Europe.
If they do it, then probably the problem is that they're too strong in some way. Maybe culturally, maybe their research. Maybe Amsterdam should be toned down?

 

[Úmarth]

Perhaps, it is a bit of a powerhouse. But flaming_iles has a point too, the open borders allows it to send its starting units right across Europe and commonly conquers Byzantium, Athens, Rome, even Mediolanum/Venice.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

I don't know if it's my computer or what, but I remember my Dutch AI conquering Rome while it was still 1300 in the last patch.

Also, Germany in the 3000 BC start is much stronger than the 600 AD start, probably because Rome stupidly builds cities in German lands (I never do).