The purpose of a non cheating AI

MrLeN

Prince
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I have seen quite a few posts about the AI and the fact that it cheats, but I have never really seen this comment attached:

The reason that I would like to see an AI that uses 'IDENTICAL' rules as me, is that once I have won, I can be proud that I have out smarted a machine that can calculate any mathematical sum in a tenth, thousandth or even a millionth of the time it takes a human.

I must say though, that when a CIV version is released in such a state that it can think and play with these 'IDENTICAL' rules, I can pretty much assure you that you will never beat it.

It would almost have to give you a handicap to have any chance.

But wouldn't that be FUN!?!

MrLeN
 
Hmmm...I don't think that day will come for quite sometime yet. They couldn't do it with Deep Blue, or they didn't in my opinion; programming it for Kasparov only, so I highly doubt it will happen anytime soon. They would have to program the game to take millions of stategies into account, as we all have our own way of playing with some overarching commonality to our strategies.

Chess is an 8x8 board game with a total of six different pieces whereas Civ is a completely different game. I would go as far as to say that no two games of Civ will ever be the same and it is for this reason that the AI will never be able to consistently defeat a skilled human player that can learn and develop new strategies.

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<IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/ninja1.gif" border=0>"Engarde you silly fool!
You are no match for my so fine
rapier!"

He who sacrifices his conscience to ambition burns a picture to obtain the ashes.
- Chinese Proverb
 
Agreed, improvements to the AI in civ 3 will be token at best. I would like to see that the AI be able to play competantly without cheatin, be able to identify threats more reasonably, and be able to build logically (not build a factory in a city with 4 shields production). But realistically, the programmers will not be able to construct an AI that woould be able to strategize. The only option would be to program several strategies into the AI, but these would be quickly circumvented by players.

Ultimately, I would like to see a computer that would learn from playing humans, but this is certainly a long way away for civilization gaming.

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<FONT COLOR="blue">"Satisfaction is the death of desire."</FONT c>
 
Originally posted by Cimfindriel:
I would go as far as to say that no two games of Civ will ever be the same...

This is also commonly thought to be the case for GO, yet another game of infinite possibilities (well, almost). I don't know why I didn't mention it in the first place. Alas, I have enter my dotage and am proving to be somewhat garrulous.
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<IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/ninja1.gif" border=0>"Engarde you silly fool!
You are no match for my so fine
rapier!"

He who sacrifices his conscience to ambition burns a picture to obtain the ashes.
- Chinese Proverb
 
Originally posted by BlueMonday:
Ultimately, I would like to see a computer that would learn from playing humans, but this is certainly a long way away for civilization gaming.

they do have computers that can learn from playing hummans in chess and that computer beat the humman champians in chess but that would take up a lot of memory because for civ it would have to calculate and literaly record every game you did and use a differant stratagy everytime they are in the same relative positions!
I think if they could do that for civ, after about 20-30 games of civ the comp would whip your *** everytime unless you started using different stratagys!
but then those too would be Inefective soon.



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The people in my cool book
1.Travin
2.Thunderfall
3.stellar converter
4.penvzila
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My S*** List
1.Hardman
 
I am not too worried about the AI in civIII, I mean the AI in civII was pretty horsehockey but we all still played it and loved it right? Making the AI cheat is unfortunately a necessary evil, I will be satisfied in small improvements in the AI with every version civ because I know how tricky AI programming is. By the time we get to civXXVIII who knows?
 
Originally posted by Mongol Horde:
By the time we get to civXXVIII who knows?

By that time they'll have their own web site with forums where they'll discuss strategies for beating humans and laugh about the dumb things that we do.
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Diplomacy - the art of
saying "Good Doggie"
until you can find a rock
 
Kev, how did you creep up to that many posts? I better watch my back
smokin.gif
Where you been postin' ?

Oops better say something on topic erm, errrr, AI load rubbish innit?
 
Perhaps the AI would play better if instead of each civ playing as a whole, it played regions. An island, a block of cities, etc, would react to threats in its area first, support its members, and send 'spare' units to help other parts of the civ. This would force the AI to stay strong locally, and still give enough flexibilty to pursue conquest and overall defense. What say you, Dan?

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"What do we want? Tickets to the Met, Broadway, the shops, civilization, man, that's what we're looking for. Oh, we may stumble along the way, take this fellow for instance. . . *BLAM*
Now was that civilized? Fun, yes, but in no sense civilized."
 
Originally posted by Kev:
By that time they'll have their own web site with forums where they'll discuss strategies for beating humans and laugh about the dumb things that we do. <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/smile.gif" border=0>

Then we'll see the real Zulu Alliance in action!!!
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DEATH awaits you all...with nasty, big, pointy teeth.
 
It's easier not to think of it as cheating with all the emotional baggage that that entails. If you just regard it as being the way the world works in the game then there is no problem coming to terms with it. I think everyone accepts that the AI will not be perfect because that is too difficult to achieve within a reasonable budget for such a complex game and we all hope and expect that it will nevertheless be getting better with each new version.

The most important point is that the "cheats" should not be too obvious in that they should not show as blatantly unrealistic behaviour and thus spoil the illusion of the game. So if, say, the AI builds things five percent faster or has a five percent weighting in combat that would not hurt the game (it is just a way of having a stronger opponent) but if units suddenly pop up on your doorstep when you know they were not there before, that would be rather like adding magic (or matter transmitters) to the game, but only for the AI.

As an intersting corollary, whenever we exploit our knowledge of how the AI works rather than making logical decisions based on the game model then we are cheating just as much. For example, fortifying a phalanx on a mountain because we know the AI will expend resources attacking it for no sound reason until it is destroyed, or (in the original game) changing production to a wonder to get the bonus from caravans and then changing it back.

For my part I am happy to take a middle line. If Firaxis make a decent effort with the AI (and they will) and the "cheats" are not too obvious, then I won't poke around overmuch in the inner workings and I will enjoy the game for what it is intended to be. Willing suspension of disbelief helps just as much with this as it does when reading fiction.

Referring back to the opening post, the computer's ability to make rapid arithmetic calculations is no cleverer than an animal's ability to breath, walk etc. The human brain does far more work far quicker than a computer does and if it had an arithmetic circuit built in, then it would calculate just as quickly (in fact that may explain how some people are apparently able to do complex arithmetic almost instantaneously).

The advantage chess computing has is the enormous resource that has been thrown at the problem for the last forty years.

By the way, Go is a million miles from having infinite possibilities. I doubt if it even has as many as chess. One of the reasons that so much AI research has been devoted to chess is that although it is a closed system (and therefore relatively easy to define theoretically) it is thought to have sufficient complexity to act much like an open system (which is impossible to model completely) and therefore is fertile ground for developing algorithms of use in far more complex systems like economic behaviour and weather.

I've got a feeling I may have said most of this before. Hope I haven't turned it upside down this time
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"Ridicule can do much...but one thing is not given to it, to put a stop permanently to the incursion of new and powerful ideas"
-Aaron Nimzovitch
 
I don't mind the AI cheat, as long as it make the game more challenging. I probably would play mostly multiplayer games anyway.
 
We all know the Ai cheats in Civ 2 and probably still will in Civ3. If it is such a big problem try only playing multiplayer games instead of against the computer AI as Thunderfall said he would do.

 
Hey what about us poor Third world folk who at the best of times get a long enough connection just to type in a couple of posts. I frankly dont see Multiplayer gaming emerge in India over A Wap for another five years. So I am forced to play against the dumb, stupid AI.

I would very much prefer to see a slightly more smarter AI which will not do completely stupid things like extinguishing its Armies trying to take an Impregnable position or needlessly switching its capital every 15-20 turns trying to probably cut down corruption or waste.

Also more than anything the AI should be taught a few basic strategies on capturing cities. All it does nw is just throw catapult/cannon/artillery at my cities and get smashed by my waiting Knight/Cavalry/Armor. That is one of the most basicstrategies the AI sould be taught.

I just remembered. The AI should not be allowed to stealtechs for which it does not have the prereqs and should taught how tomake strategic use of its spies and diplomats instead of mindlessly destroying useless improvements.
 
By Algernon Pondlife:
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By the way, Go is a million miles from having infinite possibilities. I doubt if it even has as many as chess.
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Go is played on a 19x19 board, so in theory it can have a maximum of 189! possible games (couple factors influence this: 1. not all squares are occupied at the end (reduces the number of possible games); 2. territories that had pieces taken out can be played again(increases the number of possible games)). Chess, even for a highly unlikely complex game, say 40 possible moves per ply, lasting 120 plys, would be 40 raised to the 120th power, far less than Go. Most games among grandmasters probably average at 20-30 possible moves per ply lasting somewhere around 60-80 plies, not even on the same scale as Go because Go would be cosmically more complex (think of comparing the mass of the sun to the mass of an hydrogen atom).
Anyway, strictly speaking one does not need to calculate every possible game to play the game as well as possible. Chess for example, can be reduced to an end game solution, say king + bishop + knight vs a lone king is always a win situation no matter what the positions they are in (only recently proven). Go normally has only half of its squares played out, but sadly, those are the moves with the most amount of choices, even counting all mirror positions that's only a factor of 8.
It will be interesting to design an AI for a game like Civ to be sure, but also very difficult. But I have confidence in modern AIs! Ever played Panzer general? It's kind scary but I definitely think the aggressive AI made better decisions than the real British generals did during WWII! (not that the AI was very smart, but the competition was sort lacking hehehe)
Unvala.
 
Wow...what are you some kind of math major?? Now, you'll have to excuse I'm only an engineer and the last time I checked 189! is like a real big number. I mean huge, huger huge. I mean that's 1 followed by 350 zeros. So if that is not infinite why don't you start counting. You just might get get to 189! by the year 185!
 
Originally posted by allhailIndia:
needlessly switching its capital every 15-20 turns trying to probably cut down corruption or waste.

I don't think that's the reason the AI does that, I don't think it's that smart. I believe they run out of stuff to build, and as that is always an option they build those over, and over again. Either that or they were trying to build up some sheilds for the next wonder they can build, though also I don't think they're that smart. As for the AI in Civ 3 it will have to be smarter with the national boarders and unique units and such so I wouldn't worry about it too much, just worry it's still fun.

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"In your life you seem to have it all, you seem to have control, but deep within your soul you're losing it. You never took the time, assume that you're to blame, you think that you're insane..." -Tantric
Cedric's Civilization II Page-Home of the *NEW* "Multiplayer Gold Edition" patch.
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Unvala,

I'm very rusty on maths, but does not the symmetry mean that in fact there are 81!x4! (or something like that) possible moves?

Also in Go there are a large number of trivial moves which have to be discounted. For example, in most positions a move on the edge has no significance (except as a waste of time) so there are up to 72 moves that are often irrelevant.

It is irrelevant what the average game length is and the theoretical game length for chess is far greater than go.

Also, in go the last thirty moves or so, tend to be endgame moves which amount to little more than simple "bookkeeping" for experienced players, whereas in chess the endgame is as subtle and complex as earlier stages of the game.

The mobility of chess pieces is an additional factor in the complexity that is lacking in go.

Just to put the record straight, I don't believe that a discussion of the relative complexity of the games, especially in mathematical terms, is relevant to their merits as games. I love both games.

When I first took up go, I very nearly gave up chess altogether. Fortunately, at that time I happened to be playing a couple of correspondence games, which emerged into complex endgames. This reminded me of just hoe beautiful chess is. Whereas in go the endgame is a winding down that requires relatively simple tecnique, chess endgames are a whole different world where the objectives and struggles of the earlier play quickly become irrelevant (as if they were two different games sometimes) and the new challenges take on a depth of their own.

So I now play both, although the opportunities to play go are very limited for me.

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Nothing is too wonderful to be true
 
OK let us stop getting confused with other games. I dont think the computer runs out of options so it builds palaces. It manufactures units like mad so I dont think it builds palaces because it has nothing to do. Also let us gt back to the problem of making the AI take a few more logical decisions. Also for those whose minds cannot comprehend those numbers mentioned by Unvala and RKR,
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the number of atoms in the Universe is less than the number mentioned by them.
 
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