The quick path to gunpowder

[TravellingHat]

Dear Fellow Civvers, I seek advice.

Playing BtS, the lifespan of the musket seems much improved and I fancy trying to get gunpowder early enough to get a good run out of them. I'm looking for a quick and reliable path to gunpowder. For info, I play noble, usually epic speed, restricted leaders.

It seems the quickest path is through theology with a priest bulb or the Oracle. Ideally I'd like to not rely on the Oracle, though I won't rule it out. It would then seem to be a "simple" matter of paper, education and gunpowder. "Simple" though represents a hell of a lot of beakers early in the game. Can these be bulbed by scientists? Will other bulbling options take precedence (I know, this will depend largely on what else I've researched).

Or, might the guilds line be better, in that it also provides the basis of industry and some useful units? I can usually Oracle slingshot feudalism, although it might be better to get metalcasting, and try for a GE to bulb machinery. However, this seems the less steady path.

I'm not decided on what civ I'll be trying this with, but current thoughts are either a musket UU or a protective leader (making those early muskets almost half an extra UU). My current thinking:

Musket UU
Turks (Suleiman): janissaries potentially rule the middle ages, great generals
Ethiopia: oromo, lots of discounted buildings

Protective
Sumer: vultures for early warfare, early courthouses for spies
Native Americans: dog soldiers for early security, Philosophical for GPPs
Saladin: madrassa for specialists (GPPs), knight UU might make good companion to muskets (though necessitates following the guilds tech path, essentially doubling up on theology beelining efforts)

Oh decisions, decisions!

I'm currently leaning towards Sumer for versatility, relying on vultures to start, prioritising the Great Wall and seeing if I can use espionage to fill the gaps in what will be a fairly single-track line of research. There's a resonable chance of bagging Judaism along the way, probably in addition to Chritianity, which can add up to extra moansteries to support the big research commitments. Detours will be needed for bronze working and alphabet at least.

Or... should I spoil myself and take one of the musket UUs for a test drive (not too keen on musketeers though)? The pitfalls here, as I see them, are vulnerability in the early days, requiring more tech detours.

I await your thoughts, suggestions and crticisms!

Thanks

 

[oyzar]

There are some old threads on beeling to gunpowder in the forum. Both paper and education is bulbable by a great scientist. It would seem that theology -> paper education -> gunpowder is a fast way to get there but then you miss out on col and cs which can be great assets in getting there earlier. Basically you want a nice empire by the time you get there, both zara and Mehemed are organized so forgoing col would be wierd. Oracke for col reaserch math reaserch cs bulb paper bulb edu bulb edu reaserch gunpowder bulb philo reaserch liberalism for nationalism is a pretty strong way to get there. ofc forgoing calendar and currency comes with it's own price..

 

[TravellingHat]

Thanks for the tips. I did search the forum, but drew a blank. Must have been searching for gnupowder or something (it makes wildebeest explode)!

The nationalism addition is the icing on the cake

 

[UncleJJ]

The classic way to get gunpowder fast and to make quick use of the UU is to simply beeline for Liberalism, and take Nationhood and then research Gunpowder. It is a bit slower getting there but Drafting is a great way to get enough muskets with their special abilities. You can't upgrade other troops to muskets and although they are cheap enough to build and whip, drafting can give an extra boost to output and numbers count at that stage of the game especially if you made the beeline and didn't have any serious wars. All you need is some decent siege to lower defences and maybe some collateral softening and then a stack of muskets to attack and defend what you gain, just pick promotions to match the job as needed.

I agree that the UUs and Protective muskets are good but Aggressive muskets can be good too, both drafted and normally built. The free combat gives access to pinch (which you won't need to start with if you beelined but is nice later) and of course the man in your icon (Toku) is the guy I think has the most to gain from drafting muskets, getting combat, drill and CG1 for free and if you have Theocracy he gets a promotion too.

I like going for a musket / drafting strategy and even build a few extra small cities that are ideal drafting / whipping centres. They draft muskets and whip out trebs for a fast army and only need to work a few farms grassland and plains. After Nationhood I go for Constitution for jails (and maybe Representation). Jails help with WW with a 25% reduction. Although they don't solve that problem, they really help with getting more EPs and Nationhood helps with that (witha 25% boost). I find muskets and spies are a great combo. The spies lower defences by a revolt and let the trebs do collateral and the muskets walk into the city.

 

[TravellingHat]

It just so happens I've been playing Tokugawa in an 18Civs game recently which has seen a lot of musket/pike/cuirassier warfare (Catherine "no retreat no surrender" the Great!), hence my thinking there's a lot more life in muskets since the revamp of the tech tree.

Japanese muskets are indeed great units, and it's the first time for me that they've seen action in the field, rather than just guard duty. But I'd be concerned that beelining them would miss out on the superb samurai. I can nab samurai quite early (Oracle metalcasting, GE for machinery, while heading for civil service), but I felt this might distract from the gunpowder route. However, this provides some of the pricier techs for guilds, so doesn't preclude early gunpowder, and I think Code of Laws is priest-bulbable.

Argh, the quickest route isn't necessarily the most efficient, but I am aiming for an early gunpowder advantage. However, if I gamble too much on that one objective, will I end up with a narrow (and perhaps borked) tech base?

That's why I was thinking of Sumer, relying on their considerable early strength to see me through. The vultures should provide ample muscle to start with, and the ziggurat allows for some modest REXing and running spies. Given my narrow research plans, I was thinking of using espionage to purloin those techs I'm skipping.

When there are so many ways to skin a cat, how can you be sure you're skinning it the best way?

As a side note, I also take ages choosing in restaurants.

 

[Polycrates]

Saladin is a good choice for this, I think.

With the Madrassa, you can quickly bulb Theology, and run 4-5 specialists towards your second GP. If you time things right (you need CoL but not monarchy) you can also bulb civil service with a second prophet if you want (not strictly necessary), otherwise bulb Philosophy with a scientist, and use bursts of caste system/pacifism to quickly generate scientists for paper/education. Liberalism/nationalism lets you draft some pretty nice muskets too.

You miss out on the camel archer, which is a better UU than it gets credit for, but not good enough to be worth worrying over.

 

[TravellingHat]

I had flirted with the idea of Saladin, precisely because of the 4-specialist-toting madrassa. I think that must offer some springboard, given sufficient food. I've not really played the Arabs before, and I'm not sure why they seem so maligned. Saladin has decent traits, the UU looks slightly superior to the standard knight, and the UB looks excellent. In fact, I should give them a go even if I'm not trying my early gunpowder gambit!

On which subject, I made an attempt with Gilgamesh. My GP strategy went slightly off course (spy instead of prophet to start, off the GW, but that was handy in its own way), but I managed to bag theology pretty early. I was largely surviving off tech trading and stealing, but still had big gaps in my tech base. Just to ice the cake, I had Mad Monty as a next doot neighbour, so if it hadn't been for the vultures I'd have been toast. I ended up researching paper, education and gunpowder, as the GSs I popped were offering other techs, but having nabbed the Great Library and Sankore, and dedicating some cities to research, this was do-able. Finally managed to get gunpowder around 1300AD, but I dropped the ball going for nationalism, as I'd neglected to pick up civil service (d'oh!) before completing liberalism.

All in all, risky and limiting (no plan B if it goes pear shaped). I think for my style of play, this is maybe a gambit too far, and I need a more balanced strategy.