The RA Exploit Question.

[snarzberry]

I'm not so sure because it seems like such an obvious consequence of the system that we were given in the game. The first time you encounter a situation similar to the one in the OP you realize your best option is not hard-teching expensive techs. It doesn't require much further thought investment before you're guiding the whole RA process.

 

[elthrasher]

if you've somehow deluded yourself into believing it was intended, there's no point arguing.
in the civilopedia it says "you each get a free Tech, chosen randomly by the game."

The Civilopedia says a lot of stuff and a lot of it is wrong. If you don't want to manage your RAs, then don't. What do I care? I don't usually do it, myself. I just don't see it as an exploit.

 

[Samuil]

Dude, if you think its an exploit, choose horse breeding

 

[lschnarch]

Strange. Strange. Strange.

I'm under the impression that some of the people advocating "clever behaviour" here were the same who bashed an earlier game for cheesy routines like religion "which made diplomacy manipulative".

Anyway, I think the best solution is the one below.

Solution? Research agreements always complete the tech requiring the lowest number of beakers to complete.

This way you'd get the maximum gains from research agreements if your tech research is balanced. Beelining is still available to the player, but it should now represent inefficient research in order to get a tech/wonder/unit earlier than the other civs.

 

[vexing]

The first time you encounter a situation similar to the one in the OP you realize your best option is not hard-teching expensive techs.

except with the information given in game you don't know that researching one or the other will have an impact on the outcome of the agreement.

 

[vexing]

I just don't see it as an exploit.

as i've said before, whether or not you want to call it an exploit is really just a semantic argument. it makes no difference what it's called.

what's important is if it should be changed.

 

[forty2j]

The +500 science (era dependent) might work... I'd still assign it to a random tech. (with the remainder being overflow)

You're researching.. presumably you're researching something specific.. (I guess you could go with the superglue->post-it note theory, but not all discoveries are like that).

Personally I'd go with awarding a fixed number of beakers depending on era, and you can assign those anywhere you want (including the tech you're currently working on). If it means you can get 3-4 Renaissance techs while in Modern, instead of 1 Modern tech, I don't see a problem with that.

 

[UWHabs]

You're researching.. presumably you're researching something specific.. (I guess you could go with the superglue->post-it note theory, but not all discoveries are like that).

Personally I'd go with awarding a fixed number of beakers depending on era, and you can assign those anywhere you want (including the tech you're currently working on). If it means you can get 3-4 Renaissance techs while in Modern, instead of 1 Modern tech, I don't see a problem with that.

Yeah, I'd rather see it as just give you X beakers (depending on era, each civ in the agreement's current tech rate, whatever), that just get thrown into whatever you're currently researching. Make the amount equivalent to between 1/2 of an "average" tech and a full tech in all cases.

 

[_hero_]

I prefer RAs giving beakers rather than techs. The way RAs are now they always favor the more advanced civ, even if he is paying extra gold to the AI for it. If I spend 400 gold for a 3000 beaker tech and the AI spends 300 for a 1000 beaker tech, I win. I say it should give 500 beakers or 1 tech, whichever is less. Then the beaker count should increase with the era of the less advanced civ in the agreement.

OR if you wanted it to be realistic, the more advanced civ should contribute more beakers to the less advanced civ, but from a gameplay standpoint that would create a dis-incentive to use RAs so that's unlikely.

 

[kaibayashi]

you're using the rules of the system in way unintended to your advantage.
whether you want to call it an exploit or not is really just a semantic argument.
do you also do a continuous luxury trade/pillage/repair cycle?

how to fix the RA exploit is a difficult problem, but i do think the game might be better without the need to micromanage your research like this for optimal results.

Fair enough if that's your opinion. But I'm not sure many people would agree with you. Is the way that RA's are intended to work that you sign them and then you're not allowed to remember that they're signed? Surely they are intended to be taken into account when you're making your decisions.

Do you think managing RAs belongs in the same category as trade/pillage/trade?

Sorry to be a newb, but what are you guys talking about??

 

[spfun]

i just flat out removed these damn research agreements, they are one of the worst additions to Civ5. They making technologically advancing a nation rather boring. Glad they nerfed all the GS too, that was out of control how much free techs i was getting per game, probably about half my techs were instant.

They need to increase the cost by 300% & wait time by 200% for starters. Give them enough time to change it into something good. Oh & firaxis, make RA an option in start of game, let me turn it off without having to edit xmls or use mods. That is all.

 

[vexing]

Sorry to be a newb, but what are you guys talking about??

you can sell a luxury to a different civ for a lump sum (300 gold), use your own unit to pillage that luxury immediately after the sale, use a worker to start repairing it on that turn.
you keep the gold, the trade ends since you no longer have the luxury available to trade, and as soon as it's repaired you can sell it again.

 

[Camikaze]

The +500 science (era dependent) might work... I'd still assign it to a random tech. (with the remainder being overflow)

Random tech would probably make most sense. Otherwise you may as well have the ability to do a direct conversion of into . Because that's essentially what it would be. Pay x amount of money and get y amount of research wherever you please.

 

[forty2j]

Random tech would probably make most sense. Otherwise you may as well have the ability to do a direct conversion of into . Because that's essentially what it would be. Pay x amount of money and get y amount of research wherever you please.

I kind of like the idea of you get beakers dependent solely on your RA partner's tech level, and they get them based solely on yours. Provides a more realistic view of what each party is bringing to the table, and makes RAs with far-behind civs only desirable as desperation acts.

 

[Horizons]

See, this is another example of the ultra-optimizing, play-to-win people carrying on a discussion largely unintelligible to people who play for pleasure, which will result in more nerfing/slicing/dicing from Firaxis in future patches, simply to keep the boys who play at Deity happy about themselves, while making the game less fun and harder for everyone else.


As for trade/pillage/trade, why force the devs to nerf the game simply because some people cannot help themselves but cheat because they want to boast about how they can beat the computer at Emperor level to their friends?

How does this possibly make sense? If some people want to play the game like an ass, let them ... they know what they're doing.

 

[I_qua_I]

I think the "exploit" could be solved by just making research agreements complete at a random time within a certain (wide) window.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

You're researching.. presumably you're researching something specific.. (I guess you could go with the superglue->post-it note theory, but not all discoveries are like that).

Personally I'd go with awarding a fixed number of beakers depending on era, and you can assign those anywhere you want (including the tech you're currently working on). If it means you can get 3-4 Renaissance techs while in Modern, instead of 1 Modern tech, I don't see a problem with that.

Well it should be random since You are not the one making the science. (you are making it as a team)

I'd say that it should be assigned Randomly to a tech the Other civ has+you can research.. (unless they don't have any techs you can research)


As for some of the other exploits....failure to honor a promise to deliver any type of good to a civ (RA, gpt, resource) from whatever reason, (Except that civ declaring war on you).. should get you serious diplomatic demerits. To the point where civs will no longer give you ANY upfront payments at all.
(Probably after 2 or 3 such occurences it is totally avoided)

 

[Smote]

I see no problem.

The AI cheats, the human exploits.
What is more powerful, cheats or exploits? Well, play deity and find out...

Of course, play multiplayer if you want neither

 

[joyous_gard]

Thanks to this thread, I tried the trick and it helped me to get a 24 turn Archaelogy instead of 3 turn horseback riding. I really found that useful. FOr the rest of the game I didn't really care what RAs I got or didn't get. I will probably use it until it gets morphed into something a little more normal. I use it most when I am in beeline mode. It probably should get morphed into something more normal. The reason I don't object to this rule change is because only the people that know about this trick will be affected by it. If you know about the trick, you are pretty dedicated to the game and aren't a normal user.

To get halfway into a tech and then switch to something else is not recommended but it can happen. I would hate to be rewarded with that half-teched tech.

The lowest tech idea does promote balance but doesn't provide much incentive for entering RAs when beelining. I guess the incentive is that other civs are outteching you by using the RAs while you are beelining.

The beaker idea sounds like a good idea but a pretty neutral one. Not real incentive not to enter them. Little decision making except if you have the money to spend on other things (buildings, etc)

As far as realism goes, the RA concept is another silly one. I can see Civs swapping techs. Educating a neighbor civ on how to ride horses or something. Swapping techs could be appropriate throughout the ages. Don't rich countries go to poor, rural nations and teach them how to use plumbing and computers? Well... Research Agreements feel appropriate in a later era. RAs later in the game could provide something different/better than swapping techs. The beaker swap makes sense. Two rich nations can agree to split the atom or something and the result is an effusion of science.

 

[PaperBeetle]

How about a research agreement where both parties agree the single tech to be researched at the start (i.e. it must be a tech neither has, but both can research)? Civ X contributes his whole beaker output, B_x. Civ Y also contributes his whole beaker output, B_y. Civ X pays B_ygpt into the ether for the RA, civ Y pays B_xgpt. When they have, together, accumulated enough beakers, they both get the tech.
If the deal is interrupted (e.g. they go to war) before it is done, then both parties walk away with the total accumulated beakers, and each can continue researching it at his own pace.

That is something like what I envisaged when I first heard about RAs, in the pre-release hype.
It wouldn't necessarily work with tech costs as they are now, mind you; this suggestion is more expensive in terms of beakers per coin (at least from late medieval onwards) but allows more beakers to be bought in, if you've got the cash for it.