The race to rifling: Cavalry are still a dominant unit

[Bhruic]

Getting to rifling while the AI is defending with longbows/muskets doesn't mean you're massively ahead on tech, especially if you are factoring in the liberalism launchpad.

Really, it's more an indication of Cavalry being overpowered. Well, not really overpowered in themselves, but there not being an appropriate pre-period counter-unit. There is no unit before Riflemen that can stand up to Cavalry in a 1-on-1 match. That's a game balance mistake. There really should be some sort of str 9 upgrade to Pikemen (or something similar) to provide a decent counter-Cavalry unit. This lack is, I think, what allows for the dominance of Cavalry if you manage to get them first.

Of course, I think the same thing is true for Riflemen, the power increase compared to previous units is incredible. You generally jump from a str 8 city attacker to a str 14 city attacker, a 75% increase. And while you may expect slightly stronger defenders in Musketmen, Longbows can't be upgraded to them, which means you have to build new ones, and they don't get the inherent 25% CD bonus that Longbows get. In other words, unless you're fighting a Protective Civ with hill cities, if you're first to Riflemen, you have a tremendous advantage.

I think that Firaxis did a decent job of introducing some late-game counter units, but this middle-game area is the one part that I think is still lacking.

Bh

 

[Lurking Liu]

There's already a decent counter-Cavalry unit, it's called a Rifleman and you get it the exact same moment you get Cavalry. Why should there be a good pre-Cavalry counter to it? Are Spearmen a good counter to Knights? Are Axemen a good counter to Macemen? Anything from an older era should be out-classed by a unit from a later era.

Besides, Pikemen are still 12 Strength against the 15-Strength Cavalry, which isn't bad in the least. Hell, Combat II and Formation and they're suddenly 14.7 before considering things like terrain, cultural defenses, or whatever-all-else.

 

[Handel]

Really, it's more an indication of Cavalry being overpowered. Well, not really overpowered in themselves, but there not being an appropriate pre-period counter-unit. There is no unit before Riflemen that can stand up to Cavalry in a 1-on-1 match. That's a game balance mistake. There really should be some sort of str 9 upgrade to Pikemen (or something similar) to provide a decent counter-Cavalry unit. This lack is, I think, what allows for the dominance of Cavalry if you manage to get them first.

Of course, I think the same thing is true for Riflemen, the power increase compared to previous units is incredible. You generally jump from a str 8 city attacker to a str 14 city attacker, a 75% increase. And while you may expect slightly stronger defenders in Musketmen, Longbows can't be upgraded to them, which means you have to build new ones, and they don't get the inherent 25% CD bonus that Longbows get. In other words, unless you're fighting a Protective Civ with hill cities, if you're first to Riflemen, you have a tremendous advantage.

I think that Firaxis did a decent job of introducing some late-game counter units, but this middle-game area is the one part that I think is still lacking.

Bh

Don't know how it is in the BTS, but before it the cavalry is useless as attackers. As the riflemen too. The riflemen are toast when you get chemistry and grenadiers, and the cavalry is helpless when you get steel (cannons) and machine guns. Of course if you don't research neither riflemen, nor the railroad, you will be in trouble. Wait, don't attack! I just researched biology and my citizens are soooo happy!
Or if the AI comes with riflemen and cavalry and you still have spearmen and longbowmen this simply means you should start a new game on lower difficulty.
And if you had cavalry and riflemen and the AI is away behind you I don't see anything strategic in this. This just means you better start at higher difficulty.

Edit: It is much better to go for the railroad. You get the hammer boost, you get quick movements, you are able to grab infantry and fashism (free general) and the AI is eager to exchange his cavalry and rifling tech for your steam power.

 

[Grimz101]

There's already a decent counter-Cavalry unit, it's called a Rifleman and you get it the exact same moment you get Cavalry. Why should there be a good pre-Cavalry counter to it? Are Spearmen a good counter to Knights? Are Axemen a good counter to Macemen? Anything from an older era should be out-classed by a unit from a later era.

Besides, Pikemen are still 12 Strength against the 15-Strength Cavalry, which isn't bad in the least. Hell, Combat II and Formation and they're suddenly 14.7 before considering things like terrain, cultural defenses, or whatever-all-else.

Also Cavalry costs 120 hammers (Civ4 v1.61) and Pikemen cost 60 hammers.. meaning you can make 2 Pikemen per Cavalry your opponent makes

 

[Lurking Liu]

Don't know how it is in the BTS, but before it the cavalry is useless as attackers. As the riflemen too. The riflemen are toast when you get chemistry and grenadiers, and the cavalry is helpless when you get steel (cannons) and machine guns. Of course if you don't research neither riflemen, nor the railroad, you will be in trouble. Wait, don't attack! I just researched biology and my citizens are soooo happy!
Or if the AI comes with riflemen and cavalry and you still have spearmen and longbowmen this simply means you should start a new game on lower difficulty.
And if you had cavalry and riflemen and the AI is away behind you I don't see anything strategic in this. This just means you better start at higher difficulty.

How about this, I don't say your Sonata in E Minor sucked, and you won't comment on a game you haven't played. Yes?

The difficulty is not the issue here. Any good strategy should be able to overcome the AI on a high difficulty. It's called min-maxing. He's taking his one edge and exploiting it for all it's worth, risking much in the process.

 

[Ankh]

Also Cavalry costs 120 hammers (Civ4 v1.61) and Pikemen cost 60 hammers.. meaning you can make 2 Pikemen per Cavalry your opponent makes

Now if only the AI knew that when you mass cavalry outside their border

 

[Handel]

The difficulty is not the issue here. Any good strategy should be able to overcome the AI on a high difficulty. It's called min-maxing. He's taking his one edge and exploiting it for all it's worth, risking much in the process.

And what exactly was risking? Going with cavalry and riflemen against spearmen and longbowmen?

 

[Grimz101]

Don't know how it is in the BTS, but before it the cavalry is useless as attackers. As the riflemen too. The riflemen are toast when you get chemistry and grenadiers, and the cavalry is helpless when you get steel (cannons) and machine guns. Of course if you don't research neither riflemen, nor the railroad, you will be in trouble. Wait, don't attack! I just researched biology and my citizens are soooo happy!
Or if the AI comes with riflemen and cavalry and you still have spearmen and longbowmen this simply means you should start a new game on lower difficulty.
And if you had cavalry and riflemen and the AI is away behind you I don't see anything strategic in this. This just means you better start at higher difficulty.

Edit: It is much better to go for the railroad. You get the hammer boost, you get quick movements, you are able to grab infantry and fashism (free general) and the AI is eager to exchange his cavalry and rifling tech for your steam power.

The power of Drafting Riflemen is crazy as long as you have a good amount of cities, also upgrading City Raider 3 Macemen into Riflemen is a huge step up and nothing can really stop it as long as your willing to risk many siege weapons, which is well worth the risk.

 

[axident]

Also Cavalry costs 120 hammers (Civ4 v1.61) and Pikemen cost 60 hammers.. meaning you can make 2 Pikemen per Cavalry your opponent makes

When I first started playing Civ4 and was a noob, I was on the wrong end of this. It SUCKS to have only pikes and longbows vs. cavs. Cavs can pillage, first of all. And even if your pike is behind a wall, if the AI has any siege at all, it won't last long. And even fortified pikes behind walls aren't going to last long against a determined cav rush--the kind that a human player would do.

And as for the 14.7 thing, yeah but that's assuming unupgraded cavs. Barracks + Stables is EASY to get. So a typical low-ranking cav is actually 15+20% = 18 strength, versus, what, a Pike + combat 1 + fortify + 100% vs mounted = 14.1. 18 versus 14.1--ouch!

Even if you have, say, 50% walls or cultural defense, that's 18 str vs. 17.1--the cav wins 7 out of 10 times (and of the 3 times it doesn't, 30% of the time it merely withdraws and doesn't die).

 

[cheffster]

Up to at least Monarch and in some circumstances, Emperor, cav rush still works.

It works for Immortal as well. On my current Immortal game playing as the Germans, I rushed my neighbours (Ragnar of the Vikings) with a mix of mostly Cav, but a fair bit of rifles of well. Cavarly will own pikemen, Longbows, and maceman. I took over 6 of his cities very quickly without using much seige, and seige at this point isn't that good since I didn't have Cannons yet and trebs/pults take forever to bombard cities with castles, so in this case, on Immortal Difficulty, a Cavarly rush worked amazingly well. I could have rushed with just rifles, or even waited till tanks, but it all depends on the map/player, and I bet a Cav work rush could even work on Diety with the right strat.

 

[futurehermit]

A couple things are becoming clear to me:

1) Handel doesn't know what beelining is

2) Apparently Handel contributes solid threads to these forums that I have overlooked. After I finish writing this, I am going to go look them up. I will probably learn something

3) Muskets should be the intermediary counter-cav unit between pikes and rifles. The main complaint with muskets is that they don't actually DO anything. If they stood up better to cavalry-type units that would be great. Imagine muskets with free formation or something similar...

 

[axident]

It works for Immortal as well. On my current Immortal game playing as the Germans, I rushed my neighbours (Ragnar of the Vikings) with a mix of mostly Cav, but a fair bit of rifles of well. Cavarly will own pikemen, Longbows, and maceman. I took over 6 of his cities very quickly without using much seige, and seige at this point isn't that good since I didn't have Cannons yet and trebs/pults take forever to bombard cities with castles, so in this case, on Immortal Difficulty, a Cavarly rush worked amazingly well. I could have rushed with just rifles, or even waited till tanks, but it all depends on the map/player, and I bet a Cav work rush could even work on Diety with the right strat.

Yeah in the right circumstances it might work all the way up to Deity, agreed. I think you shouldn't count on it though.

 

[Handel]

The power of Drafting Riflemen is crazy as long as you have a good amount of cities, also upgrading City Raider 3 Macemen into Riflemen is a huge step up and nothing can really stop it as long as your willing to risk many siege weapons, which is well worth the risk.

Well, you surely will have no "good amount" of cities at this stage. Besides maybe you shoid what to do - to draft neabie riflemen or promote you *very few* Raider 3 macemen to riflemen? Because on adequate difficulty I bet you will have just 3-4 of those at best (you know - if you attack with them they tend to die). But lets make a little bit of calculation - riflemen with 3 raider promotions have a power of 14+ .7x14 = 23.8. Great! Wait! They will have to attack machine guns with power of 18+ 0.5x18=27... even with no promotions at all. Don't even what to think about if you promote a grenadiers with the city defence promotions to a machine gun. So there goes through the toilet their raiders promotions and wha is left... 27 vs 14

 

[axident]

A couple things are becoming clear to me:

1) Handel doesn't know what beelining is

2) Apparently Handel contributes solid threads to these forums that I have overlooked. After I finish writing this, I am going to go look them up. I will probably learn something

3) Muskets should be the intermediary counter-cav unit between pikes and rifles. The main complaint with muskets is that they don't actually DO anything. If they stood up better to cavalry-type units that would be great. Imagine muskets with free formation or something similar...

All that formation crap or other +% crap isn't enough if the baseline power isn't that high to begin with. That's why pikes, even +185% pikes, can't do much against +20% cavs. The exception is when the differential isn't as awful as 15 v. 6. Anti-tank's baseline +125% bonus against armor is a bit better, as the ratio of baseline power there is 2:1 and not 5:2. Until Modern Armor of course.

 

[futurehermit]

It's just an example. If it doesn't work out muskets could have their strength increased until it does.

 

[Handel]

2) Apparently Handel contributes solid threads to these forums that I have overlooked. After I finish writing this, I am going to go look them up. I will probably learn something

Well, no. I don't like posting how I won on chieftain. And don't play on deity. The best what can I do is to win on Monarch. And know whatever you do on Monarch you will not be able to get cavalry and riflemen too long before the AI gets it. Because (at least before BTS - but this is not the froum for BTS, right?) the AI beelines too for the cavalry and rifling. Besides ther trade the techs with each other as crazy and as soon 2 AI civs have one of those 2 techs it is matter of 5-6 turns before most of the AI civs have it too.

But again - if you really like to read how I won I all be happy to oblige. Sorry - no palys on chieftain, but will explain how I won on noble, prince and Monarch. Every 2 civs on every difficulty in different thread.

 

[axident]

And know whatever you do on Monarch you will not be able to get cavalry and riflemen too long before the AI gets it.

This is .... less than correct.... all the way up to Emperor and maybe beyond, if the circumstances are right.

 

[axident]

It's just an example. If it doesn't work out muskets could have their strength increased until it does.

Muskets are high enough if properly promoted and fortified. CG2 + Drill 1, common with Protective leaders, plus 25% fortify and 50% walls gives a musket roughly 21.1 strength (drill being slightly less strong than combat promo). That matches up favorably with a low-ranking cav's 18 str. Until the walls fall down from siege and/or spies, of course. In that case, the musket has an effective strength of about 16.6 versus the cav's 18 = cav wins 7 out of 10 times, and withdraws 30% of the time it loses. Again. At least you need spies and/or siege so that slows down the infamous cav rush a lot.

 

[cheffster]

Yeah in the right circumstances it might work all the way up to Deity, agreed. I think you shouldn't count on it though.

Yeah, actually not something I usually do, but with access to horse, and a significant tech advantage, worked great

 

[Ankh]

Handle: You may not like this thread and thats fine, but just becasue you dont like it there's no need to spam in it how much you dislike the topic, heck I find alot of threads started here pretty pointless but you don't see me posting in everyone how boring and/or useless they are I leave them alone.

Now if you want to contribute to this thread namely: if cavalry is still a viable force when pushed back to rifling please do. but I whould recommend owning bts before commenting on it though (since this is a bts topic).

Could we please continue the disussion about cavalry now because i'm finding this thread pretty intresting.