The race to rifling: Cavalry are still a dominant unit

[futurehermit]

Yes, Handel, it's painfully obvious that you don't understand. FutureHermit is making this observation as part of an ongoing conversation on these boards--a conversation that obviously you know nothing about. The uber-strat in Warlords was to beeline Cavalry and then wipe the map clean. BTS pushed Cavalry back to a later tech, so everyone assumed this wouldn't work anymore. FutureHermit tried it, found out that it does still work to a significant degree, and posted that fact along with an interesting explanation of why it does. You didn't understand any of that.

If you walk in on the middle of a conversation, you'll be wise to keep your mouth closed and listen a while before you start insulting people. Only a fool would assume that the conversants are idiots or boasters just because he doesn't immediately understand what they're talking about.

Is this post too long to put in my sig???

 

[Percy]

Heh Florian, nice one, made me laugh =D

 

[Molon Labe]

I play on Monarch, so I have no idea how it works on higher levels, but I'm with UncleJJ in that I really find the Cuirassiers to be effective in rushing. I usually start a rush with them and have good results.

In regards to whether or not the Cavalry or the Riflemen are the better unit, I get far more use out of Cavalry. The two movement of the Cavalry is great for getting to the target quickly, and with barracks, stables and any combination of theocracy, vassalage and settled GG, you can get more promoted Cavalry out of the gate.

 

[Handel]

Muahahahaha...
The problem with guys which flame me is they didn't ever read the initila post of Futurehermit.
Because there is nothign strategic, but pure boasting. Every sentence starts with "I did this, I did that"
Everything which the guy did was things every bewbie is doing. The guy just boasted how he suceeded to make Shaka and Monti goint to war with each other and then taking Shaka when it become weak. As they are Monti and Shaka they usually non-stop are going to wars and exactly because of this they quickly become weak in the middle game. So it is no brainer there.
And the greta conclusion:

Cav wipe whole continent clean, just like before, just at a slightly later date

Great conclusion. The idea of it is - if the AI is behind and lacking some war tech you can beat it. Great strategy, great tactics, great thinker.
No one could guess this if someone didn't boast about it.

 

[Scarredroman]

Muahahahaha...
The problem with guys which flame me is they didn't ever read the initila post of Futurehermit.
Because there is nothign strategic, but pure boasting. Every sentence starts with "I did this, I did that"
Everything which the guy did was things every bewbie is doing. The guy just boasted how he suceeded to make Shaka and Monti goint to war with each other and then taking Shaka when it become weak. As they are Monti and Shaka they usually non-stop are going to wars and exactly because of this they quickly become weak in the middle game. So it is no brainer there.
And the greta conclusion:
Great conclusion. The idea of it is - if the AI is behind and lacking some war tech you can beat it. Great strategy, great tactics, great thinker.
No one could guess this if someone didn't boast about it.

Had you read the inital post, you would not be making such comments.
Futurehermit explained what happened in his game. It's background information, nothing more. He observed that the ai does not prioritize rifling, allowing the player to produce cavalry and have a military advantage. Until the ai does research the tech, cavalry can dominate the battlefield, thus the cavalry beeline is still an effective strategy for a player looking for domination or conquest victories.

 

[Handel]

Had you read the inital post, you would not be making such comments.
Futurehermit explained what happened in his game. It's background information, nothing more. He observed that the ai does not prioritize rifling, allowing the player to produce cavalry and have a military advantage. Until the ai does research the tech, cavalry can dominate the battlefield, thus the cavalry beeline is still an effective strategy for a player looking for domination or conquest victories.

Actually yes. But I play Warlords (will get BTS after 6 months when the bugs and unbalances are fixed) and the AI always beelines for cavalry. Well, not from turn 1, but once they get alphabet they go for Military tradition, (ocasionaly grabbing some techs from prophets and engineers and trading with each other) and then get Rifling ASAP. And I said in one of my posts if the devs removed this pattern from the AI research this is simply stupid. But then someone tried to explain me I don't know what beeline is.

 

[Percy]

Handel,

ok, the thread sucks. It blows, it is completely and utterly useless. It shouldn't even be there. Please contact a moderator already, and let him know what you think.

And once he's told you that you're wrong, please, just please, don't comeand post here again. Thank you very much.

 

[Handel]

Handel,

ok, the thread sucks. It blows, it is completely and utterly useless. It shouldn't even be there. Please contact a moderator already, and let him know what you think.

It is nice to see you at last admitted the obvious.

 

[Lurking Liu]

It is nice to see you at last read the last sentence of that post.




...Anyhow, useful question this time around--Cavalry. Go with Flanking when they're built, or go with Combat/Pinch? I've been going for Pinch, since successfully Flanking means you have to sit them on the sidelines for a few turns. Also, since I normally start with Cuirassiers, who start with immunity to First Strikes, the Flanking promotions are missing some of their effect. That said, there's a reason I'm perpetually stuck on Noble, so I don't think I'm necessarily right here

 

[colony]

I like to use Flanking on most of them and Combat on about 1/5 - 1/4 of them, but it varies depending on how many units I have compared to the AI. In general the more units I have the more I'll promote with Flanking, and against Rifles I'll use Flanking on more than against Longbows. Cavalry have good retreat odds with Flanking 2 and it really increases the survival rate (60% withdrawal chance). A Medic 3 unit means they'll only take a couple of turns to heal even if they're nearly dead, and as they tend to survive longer they can become quite well promoted.

 

[UncleJJ]

I do use flanking 2, but like to promote some cavalry with combat 2 out of the stables and then continue to combat 3 after a couple of wins. Then take March when they get 17 exp. With March they are then able to move immediately between battles, and it doesn't matter as much if they are hit by collateral damage when the enemy counterattack with catapults and later cannons or even airships. Of course they are under the influence of a Medic 3 general at all times.

The advantage of combat 2 and 3 promotions (over combat and pinch) is that they can attack and defend against any form of attack. Against rifles and infantry my cavalry get support from cannons and airships or fighters and later bombers. I try to use stacks of rifles and infantry plus cannons against tough targets (high culture and on a hill) and use galleons or transports to hop down a coastline, with the slow troops on ships while the cavalry move on land. For me war at this time is about using cavalry and rifles and not one or the other. Cavalry are fast and effective against weak targets but need support against tough ones.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

For cavalry I like combat and formation. By this stage in the game the AIs will have a lot of horse units, many of which will be sent to raid and pillage. Formation cavalry do a good job of keeping their numbers down. Probably half my cavalry might get combat 2, then formation, then pinch. The remainder are probably straight combat.

Generally I like the combat line. On ordinary terrain, cavalry will be the defender of choice most often. Which means that many of your battles will be defensive and flanking won't help you there. Also I like to use seige equipment so my cavalry usually go in at good odds.

For rifles I prefer drill for collateral protection and enhanced attack/defense + pinch. Drill 2 + pinch is a nice combo and only five xp for a protective leader.

 

[futurehermit]

I like the combat line as well.

 

[ungy]

I skipped most of this thread but I don't get cav. in BTS.

You need extra tech to get them over the rifles which is significant.

However for me the big hurdle is getting the numbers of units. Upgrading is expensive, and requires building lots of units that I don't care for earlier. I've had good success with rushing to rifles, getting the globe up in time and then you draft about 20 units and away you go.

You can use spies to take down castle walls--just send 2 spies in 5 turns before the attack for around a 90% success chance. 3 spies if you want to up that. Use cats/trebs to take down cities w/o walls.

Moving quicker on the attack IMHO is no comparison to getting started MUCH earlier with a much bigger force.

I find that on immortal a 15-20 unit SOD is what you need (not counting cats/trebs). The AI will have lots of troops and even rifles vs. LB is not a sure thing. With the spy takedown, you really need to take the city in one turn or else you'll have the culture to deal with again.

 

[carl corey]

Actually you need three extra techs: Music, Nationalism and Military Tradition, though arguably you'll need Nationalism to draft Rifles too.

About upgrading, I've found that it's actually a good enough tactic especially with financial civs. Depending on the position I'm in I might build Maces/Crossbows/Knights and upgrade them to Rifles/Cavalry. It costs a lot, but if you manage to grab a Great Merchant, or save some gold from previous conquests I do the upgrades (after promoting the Maces to City Raider). Dropping the research slider for several turns is also an option. You do not need EVERY tech and EVERY building right now. Switch to building wealth and merchant specialists for a few turns and upgrade your units for the next wars.

 

[popejubal]

For cavalry I like combat and formation. By this stage in the game the AIs will have a lot of horse units, many of which will be sent to raid and pillage. Formation cavalry do a good job of keeping their numbers down. Probably half my cavalry might get combat 2, then formation, then pinch. The remainder are probably straight combat.

I like this train of thought, but I go a slightly different route. I like combat, combat and then some more combat.

It's only +10%, but it's consistant and it's always available. The best part for me is when I pass Combat III and then can take March. The hardest part using Cavalry effectively for me is dealing with the downtime that occurs when the Cav are wounded. 15 strength is lovely, but 12 strength or less is a lot less appealing when the AI has unwounded Combat II Knights. With March, my Medic III chariots or my Woodsman III, Medic Warrior are available as mobile hospitals that can keep my advance moving quickly.

The Wood III Medic Warrior is not as fast as the Cav, but if I escort him with a Rifle or two, the Cavalry can jump back a tile or two to get healed and then move back to join the fray quickly. Without March, the Cavalry have to wait at least an extra turn and ususally have to wait 2-3 extra turns to get back into the action.

 

[ungy]

Actually you need three extra techs: Music, Nationalism and Military Tradition, though arguably you'll need Nationalism to draft Rifles too.

This is correct--although as you suggest I was assuming you had nat to draft and music is an easy trade by then.

About upgrading, I've found that it's actually a good enough tactic especially with financial civs. Depending on the position I'm in I might build Maces/Crossbows/Knights and upgrade them to Rifles/Cavalry.

Well IMHO this is actually a better argument for rifles. If you are running theo, or vassalage you can build CR2 maces out the gate, then upgrade to rifles. If you had an early war or major barb hunting you likely have some CR2 and likely some CR3 swords. The CR promo is better than the mounted promos.

As for mass upgrading, I agree that can make sense as normally you can afford to miss research for a while as you have basically a game winning opportunity. Again, I usually have far more melee units than mounted units, as they are more useful in their timeframe. The window on knights is usually very short in my experience, as I almost never research guilds. I'll typically trade for it when I am close to lib.

 

[illram]

As far as beelining goes, I've lately been beelining Grenadiers. I find you can get them long before cavs and riflmen, and a little bit before curassiers. The AI doesn't prioritize them and they beat curassiers, and steel is next in line. (And all your CR macemen upgrade to them as well...) I think Grenadiers are the way to go as far as getting a powerful unit long before the AI does. (Playing on monarch BTW)

 

[Meateater]

Hope this works this is a prince lev game (BTS, is there any other).
The Cav rush..

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/32692/MeateaterII_AD-1690AA.CivBeyondSwordSave

Check the log to see what happen in about 1525, I don't think I DOW on any1 Before. This was a fun game, I made some bad calls, but it turned out ok. Plus I learned alot, and still a good win.

Abe Lincoln, terra, Large, Epic, Prince, BTS..Solvers patch


Here is the end game save.. Space V.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/32692/MeateaterII_AD-1988-January.CivBeyondSwordSave

This was my 3rd or 4th game with BTS and the first 1 I won, lost the first few to an AI culture vic, WOW was not looking for that...

P.S. Don't bash its a waist, or if you do back it up.....(this tread could have been a page, at least with out the bashing, but with the bashing it's 5..)

I have learned alot from futurehermit, and there is more to come I'm sure..

 

[carl corey]

This is correct--although as you suggest I was assuming you had nat to draft and music is an easy trade by then.

Well IMHO this is actually a better argument for rifles. If you are running theo, or vassalage you can build CR2 maces out the gate, then upgrade to rifles. If you had an early war or major barb hunting you likely have some CR2 and likely some CR3 swords. The CR promo is better than the mounted promos.

As for mass upgrading, I agree that can make sense as normally you can afford to miss research for a while as you have basically a game winning opportunity. Again, I usually have far more melee units than mounted units, as they are more useful in their timeframe. The window on knights is usually very short in my experience, as I almost never research guilds. I'll typically trade for it when I am close to lib.

Yeah, I'm pretty much always using both Cavalry and Rifles/Trebs. Some cities are too spread out for my liking and I hit them with Cavalry, regardless of losses. As for the slower Rifles/Trebs I try to come up with a path that lets them do most damage with the least time spent walking between targets. I'm playing on Monarch though so most of the time I can pick up Economics from Liberalism now (couldn't do it in Warlords) so I have enough money and enough time to upgrade and use those units. Only once so far an AI (Lincoln) that I attacked with pre-gunpowder units beelined to Rifling. He was huge before the war so still managed to tech fast enough after the first war was over, so he got Rifling only a few turns after me, which meant I had to stop to build some siege. Maybe forgetting about Military Tradition would have been a better choice in that case.

As far as beelining goes, I've lately been beelining Grenadiers. I find you can get them long before cavs and riflmen, and a little bit before curassiers. The AI doesn't prioritize them and they beat curassiers, and steel is next in line. (And all your CR macemen upgrade to them as well...) I think Grenadiers are the way to go as far as getting a powerful unit long before the AI does. (Playing on monarch BTW)

I honestly never tried beelining Grenadiers since BtS came out. I play on Monarch too and I have no problems heading for Rifling and attacking only then. The best game was one in which I got Rifling directly from Liberalism, although I admit that's not a constant possibility especially if you want to grab the Great Merchant from Economics.