The Red Apple tree and other myths related to history

Kyriakos

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I was reading some articles about the "prophecies" of a few notable Greek saints, like Kosmas the Aetolian, who lived shortly before the era of the Greek revolution of 1821. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmas_of_Aetolia), and also has the title of 'Isapostolos' (equal to the apostles), and 'Hieromartyr' (Holy martyr).

They contain a number of passages that have to do with warfare, particularly between Greece and Agarenoi (Hagarenes), namely the turks, although this is a term used in the era of the Byzantine Empire for various muslim people.

More interesting, perhaps, are the prophecies which are argued to not have been fulfilled yet (the vast majority of them are generally attributed to the Balkan wars period).

One which i find to be different than the rest, not only because it has as its subject a very distinct event, and a very dramatic one at that, but moreover due to the reference to something in the future, can be translated in the following way:

"The turks will leave, but shall return again and reach the Hexamilium. In the end they will be ousted to the Red Apple-tree. Of them one third will be killed, one third will be christened, and one third will arrive there."

There are two things i find peculiar about this, and i am approaching it from a literary point of view.


-First there is a reference to the Hexamilium, or rather "Hexamilia". Originally the scholars of the church had thought that Aitolos referred to the known place near Corinth, where the eponymus 6-mile wall was built. Hexamilium means just that, "of six miles".
But then he used plural. In greek there is a distinction between Hexamilion (singular) and Hexamilia (plural), so already there is something odd perhaps about this choice of term.

Interestingly another named Saint, Elder Paisios of Mount Athos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elder_Paisios_of_Mount_Athos) claimed that Kosmas Aitolos did not at all mean the place near Corinth, but the six nautical miles which internationally Greece currently has rights to from its islands.
There does exist a very serious issue with those, since by law of the sea a country can expand those miles to twelve, but there is a Law passed by Turkish government enabling the state to declare war on Greece if such a move is enacted. So Elder Paisios theorised that the Hexamilia was a reference to that issue.

-Secondly there is the seemingly poetic naming of "The red Apple-tree". I have read that it is believed by some scholars that this term was a common term used by Greeks of the Megali Idea (the liberation of all ottoman territories which held Greek populations, or alternatively the re-institution of the lands of the Byzantine Empire) period, and simply meant an imaginary far-away place in the heart of Asia Minor.
However as a writer i am suspecting that for such a term to come to be there should have been a very logical reason that made its use so common, as was argued to have been.
I also read that the Seljuks supposedly called every large city as "Red Apple", and that this might have been the source of the term. This has some credence from a literary point of view, since if the seljuks named all cities as "Red Apple", then logically their archetypical city would have been the creator of such a notion, and hence it would have been a Red Apple-tree.
But there is a problem with that. The term "Kokkine melia" (Red Apple-tree) does not mean a tree that produces red apples, but a red tree that produces apples.

Irregardless of what phenomena are at work for a person to be of the view that he is a prophet, and moreover of tradition hailing him as one (i am not a believer of prophecies, but at the same time am of the view that there is no thoroughly logical way to dismiss them either, same with faith in general) i still find that passage of Kosmas the Aetolian to be interesting. The Elder Paisios, a very different personality all-together, has been often said to have spoken of his own prophecies in much simpler tone, without hidden meanings. But this thread has as its focus the place of myth and prophecy in history, with the aforementioned prophecy as an example of that.

I hope you found something of interest too in this short article. At some time in my life i probably will arrive at Mount Athos, where hopefully i can discuss more about such issues with some of the scholarly and ascetic elders there. I am very interested in the literary point of appreciation of such elements of tradition :)
 
I always find these sort of topics interesting, especially considering their possible outcomes, but prophecies are always a very controversial topic to write about. Considering there is no hard proof for or against them, these prophecies tend to make a good story, but aren't considered legitimate in scholarly arguments.
 
Yes, they are part of the metaphysical order of phenomena, and as such (and rightly so) their truth is greatly questioned, if not outright ridiculed.
However as with everything else one produces, they are a mental phenomenon as well. And i find that it is very interesting to wonder what gives birth to them.
For example very few saints are also prophets. I wonder how they reach the state where they believe they have the prophetic gift.
As for Mount Athos there are many stories around about ordinary people visiting, just to be met by monks who appear to know their name and things about their life. Of course this too can be (attempted at least) explained rationally, but it is part of the general aura of the place.

However some of those prophecies appear to be too extravagant. Paisios for example appears to have spoken about a war of unprecedented scale, in which most of Europe and Russia would participate. Interestingly he has been said to have claimed that Greece would not take part, although the theater of the war, at least in the beginning, would be Asia Minor.
Personally i like examining such prophecies as symbolic, as something that was not quite literal (no matter that the prophet actually probably believed it to be literal). The human mind is so complicated that you can have a myriad of events inside it, and formations, which bring potentially birth to even the most strange of claims :)
But Kosmas the Aetolian was more poetic in his words. Interesting also how distinctive one prophecy is from the next, by one person and another. Again this can be approached from a theological point of view, but also from a psychological one.
Historically as well sometimes prophecies have played a part, if they were common knowledge of the people of the period.
 
I always find these sort of topics interesting, especially considering their possible outcomes, but prophecies are always a very controversial topic to write about. Considering there is no hard proof for or against them, these prophecies tend to make a good story, but aren't considered legitimate in scholarly arguments.

Prophecies can be studied in a scholarly way just the same as any other text. For example, there's plenty of literature on the Sybilline Oracles, the book of Revelation, etc.
 
the red apple thing is Kızılelma in Turkish , but the correct meaning would be something like the golden orb . While big cities allright , the imaginary targets as they were mentioned in literature and speeches of the day they need something extra , more significance . Istanbul fits the bill allright , Rome and Vienna have also been mentioned . In all there is no clear definition for the term . Kremlin's roof would have been interesting in this context but ı think at the time the term had significance , was in vogue and there were means to achieve results Moscow was not "significant" .

out of context ı understand New York's is green apple , how did it get that ?
 
So you are saying that there was the term "red apple" used by Turkish tribes to refer to big cities? That was my understanding from what i read.
Any reference at all to a "red apple tree"?

In the time of the Greek-Turkish war of 1920-1922 it was theorized that the red apple tree was Ankara, but i seriously doubt it, since i think that Ankara at the time was a small and insignificant town. Moreover, obviously, at any rate there was no final expulsion to Ankara and beyond, and neither was anything there to do with "six miles". I had read that the lines of the front in that war were utterly massive, so certainly they were a lot larger than just 6 miles.
 
Here are some more of Kosmas Aetolos' prophecies, i chose the more interesting ones to myself:

"When you see the thousant-sail in the White Sea, that is when the wishful will come"

"The cause of the general war will be Dalmatia. First Austria will be dismembered, then Turkey"

"Many villages will be destroyed; three countries will become one"

"You will see in the field a carriage without horses running faster than a hare" (many have claimed this to be about the invention of the automobile)

"First a false Roman-state ("Ρωμαίικον", the term refers to Greece) will come; do not believe in it, it shall pass"

"A foreign army will come, it will believe in Christ, but will not know the language"

"From high above, inside the harbor, shall the devastation come"

"The devastation shall happen from a bald man"

"You shall go to live elsewhere, and others shall come to live in your lands"

My favourite probably is the one about the harbor and the devastation, because it is so stripped down that it appears poetic :)
 
ı wouldn't have a clear idea about the exact usage in the age of , say , Selçuk Beys but in 1980s when ı was in school it was said to define a ideal . Say the capture of Istanbul was a realisation of a comment by Prophet Muhammed that one day even the great Roman Empire would be defeated by the armies of Islam . In this context Rome itself and Vienna - maybe because the Austrians were claiming the mantle of being the successors Romans- might mean the Kızılelma was still about a religious mission . Not sure though . One thing that can be ascertained though there would have been new ideals to go after had Ottomans taken both of the cities . In the current political situation the "nationalist - socialist" grouping was mockingly called the coalition of the red apple , must be proof that it is not in vouge today .

ı personally long believed the thing was really a red apple and was confused about the significance . ı don't think there is a reference to the tree aspect . At least ı haven't seen one so far .

getting even more into politics there are indeed talks about the territorial waters question but they will fail .
 
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