The relevance of forges!?

[Gilg]

"The Guild of Hammers" is a must have and I restart if it fails... But that has only happened 3-4 times. As a result thereof i very rarely build forges.

It's the only building with a hammerboost and I would have expected it to be top priority... but naaa it's more useless than 10 plagued adepts and no mana.

I understand how one might want to remove the need to build a forge at the top of every new city's buildque, but still??

I'd rather see the GoH give + 15% faster buildings and then have blacksmiths be buildable and moved to between cities.

 

[rocklikeafool]

Consider this. Wat bout the civs that don't own GoH? They need somethin to give them the benefits of GoH, don't they? That, my friend, is the relavence of forges.

 

[Gilg]

Perhaps it's more of a singleplayer problem.... But yes... the civs without needs forges, it's just so rare to not get that specific wonder.

 

[Annex]

it's just so rare to not get that specific wonder.

I dont understand

 

[xienwolf]

Well, I don't see the issue really. You yourself said that you reload if you fail to get the wonder, so obviously forges are worth a LOT to you. You are going out of your way to get them the best way possible. So there is no issue with forges at all, maybe your issue is feeling that GoH is overpowered instead? Or that the AI undervalues it?

 

[Gilg]

As it is now they are utterly useless to me and GoH is absolutely vital. I suppose that it'll be hard to find a better definition of overpowered.

Without GoH forges would be built after monument (or religion), market and perhaps a courthouse.

As the title says I try to focus on the relevance of forges and as a building built by the individual city they have next to one.

 

[xienwolf]

So by the same token are Mage Guilds useless because you just build the Catacomb Libralus?

 

[MagisterCultuum]

The difference is that you need to build one Mage Guild before you can build the Catacombs Libralus, while you never have to actually build one if you get the Guild of Hammers.

I think that making the Guild of Hammers (which I still think should return to being called the Guild of Endeavors) only buildable in a city with a Forge would be appropriate.

 

[Ksi]

Consider this. Wat bout the civs that don't own GoH? They need somethin to give them the benefits of GoH, don't they? That, my friend, is the relavence of forges.

Exactly, it is ridiculous making an argument like this when you restart your game. Please try to see the logic and please please please don't post what you think should be nerfed for at least a while.

 

[MrUnderhill]

There are more differences between Mage Guild/Catacomb Libralus and Forge/Guild of Hammers, too.
1. Both the Catacomb Libralus and Mage Guilds are available at the same tech. Forges require Smelting and GoH needs Engineering, which are quite far apart.
2. Smelting provides no very few benefits besides forges (it's essentially a speed-bump tech on the way to Iron Working), whereas Knowledge of the Ether grants access to a new unit and several new technologies. If you're running RoK, you don't even need to reveal Iron because you can get it from the Mines of Gal-dur.
3. Mage Guilds are the sole access point for an entire unit line, and you really only need one to gain access to it. Forges only grant a boost in production and an engineer, and to get any noticeable benefit you need to build them in every city (hence why the Guild is such a critical wonder, since it does all that for free). Forges are also a much larger hammer investment than Mage Guilds at a point in the game where you can't really afford it. Often it's better to spend a lot of time in one city than a marginal amount of time in every city to achieve the same effect.
4. Catacomb Libralus also provides no very few benefits besides the free Mage Guilds, wheras the Guild also grants every engineer specialist an extra hammer (Runes Sidar FTW). Therefore even if you could build forges before the Guild, it's better to get the Guild anyway.

I don't agree with making the Guild require a forge. At least, not without moving it to Smelting, Iron Working, or somewhere on the metal line. It's bad enough that the Guild is a late-game wonder. Making it (essentially) a two-tech wonder won't encourage people to build forges; it'll discourage them from building the Guild at all.

 

[Gilg]

So by the same token are Mage Guilds useless because you just build the Catacomb Libralus?

I don't think so... catacomb libralus comes earlier + the hammer cost is substantial and as I play it I have a few core cities spamming adepts when it seems to make sense, ergo few guilds is needed.
If mage guilds was 2x or 3x in hammerprice and needed in each and every city asap. it would be the same thing.

 

[xienwolf]

So would it be better then if there was a "mini-forge" available at Engineering which was what the GoH provided everywhere instead of the completely seperate tech branch real Forges?

Could even follow suit with base Civ for a little bit and make the mini-forge have pre-requisites based on city placement (ie - riverside) for a city to build their own, but GoH places it in all cities regardless of validity.

 

[skallben]

Shitloads of hammers worth in production are freed up for other stuff plus you get a major kickstart as lots of cities takes longer time to build a forge than production-city to build the wonder. The issue is not forges or the wonder, the issue is that you take for granted you allways get it, thus forges are useless to you.

 

[Caradoc]

Don't forget that the Forge is really your first chance to generate some Great Engineer GPPs, which can come in handy when it time to build that GoH.

 

[rocklikeafool]

I dont understand

Most people try really hard to get Guild of Hammers.

 

[Zechnophobe]

This seems to be a surprisingly narrow question. Only one civ can have the guild of hammers. If you 'need' it, then obviously forges are valuable enough to go out of your way for.

However, just because you, personally, quit if you don't get it, doesn't mean forges are not valuable. Consider that if you had enough backbone to live in a world without the GoH, you would no doubt want to build forges.

 

[Annex]

Most people try really hard to get Guild of Hammers.

Are you serious? I am interested to see how many FfH'ers restart if they cant build it.

I could see if this was the case when it gave you a discount to upgrades, but I dont find it powerful enough to beeline engineering just so I can build it.

 

[Zechnophobe]

It was significantly more worth it to beeline engineering when you also got the free engineer. First to research engineering = +25% production in all cities. That's a fairly decent goal.

 

[Breez]

So would it be better then if there was a "mini-forge" available at Engineering which was what the GoH provided everywhere instead of the completely seperate tech branch real Forges?

Personally, I love this idea.

The forge is such a big deal becasue it is the ONLY building that dies what it does. I, like the OP and many of you all it sounds, go for GoH VERY early. I ALWAYS have it before I have smelting. I always beat the AI, therefor I never build Forges. (that does NOT make them useless)

So the question is....

(For the purpose of the question the above mentioned mini-forge will be refered to as carpenters as mini-forge irks me for some reason)

Do you leave Forges
@ 250 production cost, +25% bonus , 1

and make the carpenters
@ 100 production cost, +10% bonus

OR

Do you make the 2 of them combine to make a current Forge...

@ 150 production cost, +15% bonus , 1

and make the carpenters
@ 100 production cost, +10% bonus

Left to me I would chose the first option... and have them require trees, not a river. But then I may just be prejudgced to Carpenters...

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I'm thinking it may be a good idea to make Forges necessary for Iron Weapon again (using FF base code that is a lot easier). Dwarven Smithies may have to give access to the superior Dwarven Steel weapons instead.