The relevance of forges!?

[Nikis-Knight]

I'm not going to deny myself forges until I get engineering, unless I want to avoid the metal line for some reason (Sheaim). Of course, some cities aren't going to waste the time building it so won't have it until/unless I get the wonder.
Also, why would you reload if you lost the wonder? You know you can get them on city capture, right?

 

[MagisterCultuum]

If I recall, the player that actually gets builds the wonder gets the free buildings, not the one that currently owns it. I've captured the Catacomb Libralus (and also built the Mercurian Gate in the city and then switched to take advantage of it) before and not gotten the free buildings. It was really annoying to find out.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Ah, good point. Well, it's not like the Hill Giants switch sides when you capture that wonder.
Wait, that would be so cool!

 

[Blakmane]

The relevance of forges is that if you don't get the GoH (or don't go for engineering) they're the backup plan for some extra hammers. Because you always restart if you miss it, you are removing their relevance from the game yourself. That's like me saying 'obviously mines of Galdur is useless because I beeline ironworking, and if I don't pop iron nearby I restart' -_-

 

[Verdian]

I like the idea of taking over a Wonder granting its buildings. But it depends on the interpretation of the Wonder. Does building it mean it is so effective that it is like a forge/mage guild in every city, or does its construction include the creation of all of those other buildings simultaneously?

 

[Gilg]

The relevance of forges is that if you don't get the GoH (or don't go for engineering) they're the backup plan for some extra hammers. Because you always restart if you miss it, you are removing their relevance from the game yourself. That's like me saying 'obviously mines of Galdur is useless because I beeline ironworking, and if I don't pop iron nearby I restart' -_-

Well..... You're right, I'm removing it's relevance myself, but with the difficulty I'm able/comfortable with now (emperor) I don't see anyway around getting the GoH as early as possible. In the it's just too many hammers lost if i don't.

The next couple of games I'll attempt a higher difficulty and if it's sufficiently more difficult getting the GoH we'll have a pro forge argument. (Though I still think that a change would be nice)

 

[feydras]

I'm thinking it may be a good idea to make Forges necessary for Iron Weapon again (using FF base code that is a lot easier). Dwarven Smithies may have to give access to the superior Dwarven Steel weapons instead.

Please no. Flavorwise it's great. The AI had a hard time handling it but more importantly the old way meant a ton of micro-managing running units around to key cities and back to get the upgrade. I was one of the people pushing for the change and thrilled when they eliminated this hassle. If we did go back to the old way then i would beeline GoH for sure.

Your dwarven smithies is an interesting idea though. You could do something like a dwarven smithy guild (wonder) that gives Steel weapons (civ wide). Steel weapons could provide a minor benefit like +x% vs. Iron weapons but otherwise have the same stats (+2) and the wonder could be cheap. It would be neat to limit this wonder based on your relations with the dwarven civs somehow.

Personally, i get bored always building the same wonders or rushing the same religions and so oftentimes will avoid my favorites to play a different game. The OP's argument seems odd as others said if you restart when you don't get GoH then of course forges are irrelevant.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

The AI had a hard time understanding it back when it was in Fire, but Xienwolf's mechanism is very different from that. I believe that the AI could understand it rather well now.

 

[Humakty]

It's strange : I usually go for iron working so much earlier than engineering that I don't even understand the point of this thread.

 

[Imuratep]

I really can live without forges. GoH is quite nice, but by far not necessary for a win. In FFH there are so many way to get a good production anyway that it's not that essential as you say. And an entire strategy only based on a single wonder and no other strategies allowed? Why don't you just imagine the wonder does not even exist and try something new? New ideas to play the game are the only reason for me to start a single player game of FFH at all.
Though if Catacombs are brought up, I want to make a suggestion: How about giving all adept units +2 XP if you have Catacombs like you did in earlier versions when you had Gaelan's Circle in your City? Also the Catacombs could allow to build Gaelan himself (I don't know if the event to get him still exists after Gaelan's Circle has been removed. If it still does ignore this part of my suggestions.)
Edit: @ Humakty: For me the same. I only research engineering if I anyway want to get taxation (because both need mathematics).

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Why would you ever research Iron working before Engineering? I tend to rush to found as many religions as I can (in different orders depending on the civ), then rush to Engineering, then to Taxation, then to Fanaticism, then to Strength of Will. Iron Working is pretty low priority (you can get iron from the Mines of Galdur more easily if you need it), and is one of those techs I prefer to simply trade for when I need it as a prerequisite for higher techs. When I do research Iron Working I usually already have Strength of Will, Theology, Guilds, etc.

 

[Annex]

Why would you ever research Iron working before Engineering? I tend to rush to found as many religions as I can (in different orders depending on the civ), then rush to Engineering, then to Taxation, then to Fanaticism, then to Strength of Will. Iron Working is pretty low priority (you can get iron from the Mines of Galdur more easily if you need it), and is one of those techs I prefer to simply trade for when I need it as a prerequisite for higher techs. When I do research Iron Working I usually already have Strength of Will, Theology, Guilds, etc.

1) Many times cant build Mines of Gal-Dur
2) Champions
3) GoH already built
4) If tech trading is off/ cant trade to get it

 

[Nikis-Knight]

It might be more interesting if, instead of providing free forges, the GoH instead made all forges give, say, +4 free hammers. So that you would still benefit from building the forges and need the IW technology. But that might end up being a big nerf, even if it would be better long term, because having forges pop up instantly in small cities is a real boon.

Why would you ever research Iron working before Engineering?...

Different people have different priorities. Obviously you need agriculture, mysticism and/or education early, etc., but there's lots of viable paths after. I find engineering takes too much time from more agressive techs to get early--I usually have some melee units I want to upgrade.
I rarely found more than one religion, sometimes none. It's a big benefit, sure, eventually after you have gotten several Great Prophets, but it is also several techs.
And so forth.

 

[Imuratep]

The same. For me wonders and religions are a gimmick not more. It's much more important to have a military force with which you can stand against every attack/ start an attack by yourself or a working economy (Taxation, Currency, Trade). There are civilizations with which I always research a certain religion, because they profit specifically from the Religion or because of flavor reasons (Bannor --> The Order (Crusade), Sheaim --> Ashen Veil (Synergy StW+Slavery for Planar Gates), Calabim -->(Synergy StW + Feast), Malakim --> Empyrion(Chalid, Council), Order (Worldspell) etc.). But I never research religions just to have them, because there are things much more important especially in early game.

 

[heisenberg]

Yea, I usually hit Iron-working most of the time before I reach Engineering too.
Axemen are simply too weak to dig out fortified archers (especially on hilltop cities), even with iron from Gal-dur.
Champions with iron (or bronze) have a much easier time doing so.
Often I rush Iron (or at least smelting to see iron), when I find that I have a lack of copper nearby. Half the time though, I just go RoK and rush Gal-dur even before smelting, but sometimes when I do not feel like following Runes, Smelting > Iron working becomes a very high priority, way over Engineering.

 

[Humakty]

And the metal tech line allows the various tree chopping stuff. Can be a must have, depending on your startpos.

 

[Randomness]

Prehaps a lower tech production building would solve this, such as the carpenter, but at somthing on the lower tiers, such as Bronze Working, or prehps on the later teirs, a magical branch production building. Personaly, I find production buildings not needed as hills and/or trees are abundent, so I never have production issues.

 

[skallben]

I don't think it's about having "production issues" it's just that it's a good investment because it pays back multiple times in due time.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

The same. For me wonders and religions are a gimmick not more. It's much more important to have a military force with which you can stand against every attack/ start an attack by yourself or a working economy (Taxation, Currency, Trade). There are civilizations with which I always research a certain religion, because they profit specifically from the Religion or because of flavor reasons (Bannor --> The Order (Crusade), Sheaim --> Ashen Veil (Synergy StW+Slavery for Planar Gates), Calabim -->(Synergy StW + Feast), Malakim --> Empyrion(Chalid, Council), Order (Worldspell) etc.). But I never research religions just to have them, because there are things much more important especially in early game.

Religions give you a bigger military boost than.... anything except bronze working. It's silly to prioritize say IW over the whole religion tree.

 

[Imuratep]

I dont prioritize IW over the religion tree (just because it's too expensive to do that), but I would prioritize it in most games over Engineering, because apart from that wonder you don't get very much. I understand the value of their heroes (and of some units they get), but I don't understand why a second religion (Magister was talking about prioritizing all religions before Iron working) should boost me military. The only thing you get are more temples and perhaps a Holy Shrine. Furthermore for me religions have to be part of a civ specific strategy, because otherwise it's boring. I'll never adopt Order just because I want to get that Basilicas or that Valin, but because it either fits to a civilization and/or because it supports an important theme of this civ.