The remaining Civ

[SoCalian]

Originally posted by Hygro
I'm with Chris on this one why not _____ ?

It almost sucks being a beta tester... I can't join in the speculation which is half the fun!

and Calcagus (thats the name right?) there's no way with "so many testers" anything would be leaked over the net like that. Security and honosty run high in this team.

:saiyan: :saiyan: :saiyan: !!!BITE ME!!! :saiyan: :saiyan: :saiyan:
Has whoever you are talking about even been mentioned yet. I'm not asking for names or anything like that, just some thing to tide over the murderous rage. :die:

I'm with Quasar1011 on this, the Hebrews are the mos important and underrated civ of all time.

 

[Xen]

Originally posted by Quasar1011
I see my vote just broke the tie. I voted for the most important civilization in all of world history, the Hebrews!

nope, afraid your just about WRONG! (sorry to seem so pissey/mean about it, i'm sure it came off that way, just trying to be a little funney )

The hebrews only invented monotheism, and thats about it, the world technologiclly would be more advanced with out it (no represive middle age fundamentelist christian governments burnig down "evil pagan libraies", and more or less out lawing science

Sumeria, Greece, Egypt, Babylon, Rome, and Phoenicia are by far more important, as well as a great deal of others all contributed vastlly more to civilisation then a theological thought.

also, I know Calgacus, he's one smart dude, he's right about alot of thing (not everything though )

 

[Licinio]

Byzantium is the same as Rome, so it can´t be on the game, is like putting U.R.S.S. in the game, having alrealdy Russia.

 

[Xen]

read my post, they are as differnt as the US is from Britain

 

[Quasar1011]

Originally posted by Xen


nope, afraid your just about WRONG! (sorry to seem so pissey/mean about it, i'm sure it came off that way, just trying to be a little funney )

The hebrews only invented monotheism, and thats about it, the world technologiclly would be more advanced with out it (no represive middle age fundamentelist christian governments burnig down "evil pagan libraies", and more or less out lawing science

Sumeria, Greece, Egypt, Babylon, Rome, and Phoenicia are by far more important, as well as a great deal of others all contributed vastlly more to civilisation then a theological thought.

also, I know Calgacus, he's one smart dude, he's right about alot of thing (not everything though )

Well let's see. Sumeria, Babylon, and Phoenicia no longer exist as civilizations. Rome gave way to Italy. Greece and Egypt are great civilizations, but not to the extent that they influenced the entire world.
Greece easily would have to be considered one of the top 5 civilizations of all time, though. The others would be: Rome, Persia, and Babylon. But #1 would be: Israel. My source for this, is God. That's what He told the prophet Daniel, and all that He said has come to pass. A yet future predicition is that a Jewish king will rule the world from Jerusalem for 1000 years. This makes Israel the most important nation in world history, by far!
Napoleon recognized this. When overlooking a battle in Egypt, one of his aides asked him for proof that God exists. Without hesitation, Napoleon replied, "The Jews." Alexander the Great also recognized this. He conquered many cities, but spared Jerusalem. Why? Upon approaching Jerusalem, a group of priests dressed in long white robes came out to greet him. They showed Alexander that, according to their scrolls, he was prophesied to conquer the known world. Alexander had dreamed of a city that would send a group of priests out to meet him, dressed in long white robes, so he was elated at seeing this in Jerusalem.
Lest you think the hebrews (Jews) didn't invent anything, may I remind you that both Robert J. Oppenheimer and Albert Einstein were Jewish, and I doubt that fission would have been discovered when it was, without these great men.
By the way, I'm not Jewish. I simply recognize historical truth when I see it.

P.S. If you subtract monotheism from the mix, that negates the advances of over 2 billion people (Jews, Christians, Moslems) from world history.

 

[Xen]

A) Judaisim is a bilife, a religion NOT a country- we are talkin about israle

B)I personally hold no belife to the monotheistic western god what-so-ever, I'm a Roman Polytheist, damn proud of it

C)has it ever occured to you that Alexander didnt take Jerusalem by force because they SURRENDERD

D)Oppenheimer, and Einstein were indeed jewish- hoe that is supposed to mark them as special i dont know, particurally considerng no "jewish homeland" existed indipendentlly at that time

E) and what were those advance pray tell, that came from monotheistic sources (other then theologicl ideas) that Polytheistic scholars could not have come up with- nothing, if anything it would have happend faster with out all those christain zealots running around buring the "evil pagan knowledge" contained within libraries

 

[trumpeteer]

Originally posted by Licinio
Byzantium is the same as Rome, so it can´t be on the game, is like putting U.R.S.S. in the game, having alrealdy Russia.

Byzantium the same as Rome!!! No more than Mexico is the same as Spain, or England is the same as France! The split which occured between the Eastern and Western Roman Empires was inevitable, due to cultural differences. Byzantium was a separate state with a different sphere of control than Rome.

 

[Xen]

ahh, some one who see the light of the Byzantine beacon

 

[Quasar1011]

Originally posted by Xen
A) Judaisim is a bilife, a religion NOT a country- we are talkin about israle

B)I personally hold no belife to the monotheistic western god what-so-ever, I'm a Roman Polytheist, damn proud of it

C)has it ever occured to you that Alexander didnt take Jerusalem by force because they SURRENDERD

D)Oppenheimer, and Einstein were indeed jewish- hoe that is supposed to mark them as special i dont know, particurally considerng no "jewish homeland" existed indipendentlly at that time

E) and what were those advance pray tell, that came from monotheistic sources (other then theologicl ideas) that Polytheistic scholars could not have come up with- nothing, if anything it would have happend faster with out all those christain zealots running around buring the "evil pagan knowledge" contained within libraries

a) Judaism as a religion is the glue that held the Jewish race/nationality together. You can't really separate Israel from its religion, Judaism.

b) that's your right.

c) sure, they surrendered to Alexander the Great. Alexander then offered a sacrifice to the Jewish God, Jehovah. To sacrifice is to surrender your will. Sounds like Alexander knew from whence his power came.

d) Oppenheimer and Einstein did live to see a Jewish state in their time. Israel became a nation agian in 1948, after 2000 years of dispersion (What other civ can claim that?) Einstein died in 1953, and Oppenheimer in 1967.

e) most likely, you are correct in saying that pagan societies could discover anything that monotheistic societies did, given enough time. History does not bear that out however. This is why we have Civ3!

So the Great Library of Alexandria burned down. Get over it already! What about Isaac Newton's College, and the theory of gravity? Isaac Newton was a devout Christian. You'd have to subtract the Sistine Chapel as a wonder too, if you omitted Monotheism. I guess we just need more pagan wonders in the game!

 

[Xen]

A) can you give me ANY proof that Alexander sacraficed to the hebrew god, and not Zeus, if he mada a sacrafice at all

B)I doubt he held any credence in monotheism- after all he proclaimed himself a living god, and had a habit of offerning things to the greates gods of each land he conqored

C)It wasnt just the Alexandrian libray- it the Athenian, Ephisian, Halicarnassin, Carthaginian, and large portions of the Rome works as well as countless outher were sent to the flame

D)I would like more "pagan wonders" in the game- like Aristotles lyceum, and the Temple of Zeus (we get that one though )

E)befor I cinverted, I studied (and still do) the history of the bible- even king solomon at one time, AFTER he became king worshiped multiple foriegn gods, and as such, and as the fact that at any time a great deal of israles inhabitants were not jewish, it is possible to seperate event he ancient state from it's "official" religion, as well as the modern state

 

[aaminion00]

Originally posted by Xen
The hebrews only invented monotheism, and thats about it, the world technologiclly would be more advanced with out it (no represive middle age fundamentelist christian governments burnig down "evil pagan libraies", and more or less out lawing science

Yes but religion helped orginize people and empires, which eventually led to great advances in science. Although I agree to you to some extent.

Originally posted by Quasar1011
Well let's see. Sumeria, Babylon, and Phoenicia no longer exist as civilizations.

Yes and up untill 50 years ago, Jews/Israelis/Hebrews weren't that different from the abovementioned.

Originally posted by Quasar1011
Greece easily would have to be considered one of the top 5 civilizations of all time, though. The others would be: Rome, Persia, and Babylon. But #1 would be: Israel. My source for this, is God. That's what He told the prophet Daniel, and all that He said has come to pass. A yet future predicition is that a Jewish king will rule the world from Jerusalem for 1000 years. This makes Israel the most important nation in world history, by far!

... Because of a prophecy?

Originally posted by Xen
has it ever occured to you that Alexander didnt take Jerusalem by force because they SURRENDERD

LMAO!

Originally posted by Quasar1011
Judaism as a religion is the glue that held the Jewish race/nationality together. You can't really separate Israel from its religion, Judaism.

Yes you can because this is CIVILIZATION. We're talking about the Israeli people, not their religion, although most everybody knows about it.

Originally posted by Quasar1011
Oppenheimer and Einstein did live to see a Jewish state in their time. Israel became a nation agian in 1948, after 2000 years of dispersion (What other civ can claim that?) Einstein died in 1953, and Oppenheimer in 1967.

The reason Israel became a nation again is because foreign powers put it there so that the holocaust wouldn't happen again as soon as another madman came to power. Why the rebirth of Israel is a great accomplishment, I don't understand.

Originally posted by Xen
befor I cinverted, I studied (and still do) the history of the bible- even king solomon at one time, AFTER he became king worshiped multiple foriegn gods, and as such, and as the fact that at any time a great deal of israles inhabitants were not jewish, it is possible to seperate event he ancient state from it's "official" religion, as well as the modern state

The reason the civ in the poll is Israeli is because it seems obvious that the civ everyone wants is supposed to represent the ancient kingdom of Israel and this modern state that is based on it.

 

[erez87]

Ok
Kingdom if Israel was weak, and destoried by Assyria prety qwikly...
Jehuda, of juhda or whatever it's writen in english was a true jewish country, and also the united kingdom lol: the british stoll this name from us!)

and lest thing.
Israeli country is a great accomplishment because we finaly have somwhere to run to from all you christians who think jews supose to die, and that jews are not worth to be called a great accomplishment...

 

[Licinio]

After the end of the West Roman Empire, the East(Byzantin) Empire became the only Roman Empire. The culture was not diferent, it still have the helenistc influence, but it was diferent form the countries of EUROPE. But was still the same king of government form before: One Emperor, above anything. And Byzantium is not the same as USA and England.

 

[Xen]

Your not the only one running from the christians... if you think a lot of 'em dont like you, then imagine what they think of someone who worships the gods of Roma, whom they call pagan....

also, I think that I may be going a bit far in my rhetoric- I dont dislike jews, and I dont dislike israle, i do however trhink that if it is going to be represented in a game which should only include some of the biggest, grandest, and most important civilizations (and a great deal of space has been squanderd alrady on far more minor civs such as korea,and Zululand, while I do see the need for zululand, korea was just giving in commercially, but thats a differnt topic), and so if Israle was going to a civ,you would need to come up with some better reasons then religious ones, beacuse in the end, your life is probabley based on your deeds, and not your belifes.

 

[Xen]

like I said before-

-Byzantium used Greek instead of the offical Latin....
-It had a new capital
-It's army was differently organised (and stayed organised after -the fall of Rome)
-It's religion became slightly different
-It survived and thrived after the breakup of the empire
-And it evolved new customs, fashions, art and culture

 

[Xen]

while the US

uses english still
dose have a new capital
has the SAME military structure as britain
has survived aftre the breakup of the Brirish empire
has evolved new custums not apart of britain

using your logic, the U.S shoul not be in either, but like Byzantium, it is just way to importat a part of history to leave out

 

[erez87]

In past we invented monothism, that religous reason...
Another one? well what about scietific? today israel creates the biggest numbers of patents (whatever this word is in english), the smartest people in the world were jewish, and the biggest people in history were jewish, or half jewish.
Examples:
Einstan, carl-marcs, sorry to say but hitler, and if we go far into man and eev (whatever it's called in english) so everyone are somwhow jewish

EDIT
biggest= very important, even thought they were evil, they were important.

 

[wildWolverine]

I think the Akkadians would be a interesting civ because of their extremely early dominance... however, due to the already crowded situation in the Fertile Crescent, my vote would go with the Cheyenne...

Some responses:

1.) (referring to Byzantium):

-Governement helped end all that ineffecient feudalism crap by showing what a strong central government could, particurally influenced England

The only thing that influenced England's formation of a strong central government was the rule of William I (William the Conqueror), who's Norman heritage was distinctly Viking (Rollo). The existence of the Byzantine Empire had absolutely no effect on England...

2.)

if you think a lot of 'em dont like you, then imagine what they think of someone who worships the gods of Roma, whom they call pagan....

Other than this Forum being an exceedingly inappropriate place for a theological debate, the word "pagan" is not intended to be an insult. Originally, the word merely referred to the rural population -- i.e., anyone not living in a town or village. Because most of the rural populace of Europe were the last to convert to Christianity (refer to the propensity of midwives and "Clever Folk" through the "Catholic" Middle Ages, and lucky charms, such as horseshoes hung over doorways at farms), the word pagan became associated w/ non-Christian beliefs.

 

[Xen]

A)The Normans had contact with Byzantium via Italy

B)First off you imply that the population in full of rural europe was converted to (at least some form of0 christianty- that statement there is false (there is a web site full of a bunch of angrey traditional Greek polytheists that would debate this at great lengths with you)

C)although not in this paticular sub-forum, there are indeed theologicle discussions that go on here

D)Theology is at the heart of the discussion for Isarale to be a civ represented in the game, and is therefore very prudent to be discussed

 

[wildWolverine]

Yes, I'm too lazy to use the quote option...

Quote:
A)The Normans had contact with Byzantium via Italy

Except for one battle, the Normans didn't invade Italy until 1072, AFTER William the Conqueror had set up his centralised government in England

Quote:
B)First off you imply that the population in full of rural europe was converted to (at least some form of0 christianty- that statement there is false (there is a web site full of a bunch of angrey traditional Greek polytheists that would debate this at great lengths with you)

I implied nothing of the sort. If anything, I implied the opposite, as many farmers still hang horseshoes over their doorways today (even if they don't remember why). However, most "pagans" or people who lived in the country did indeed state their adherence to Christian beliefs, especially on mainland Europe, if only to avoid persecution by the Inquisition.


Quote:
D)Theology is at the heart of the discussion for Isarale to be a civ represented in the game, and is therefore very prudent to be discussed

Contrary to popular belief, Israel is not a wholly Jewish state... Many citizens of Israel are of Arab origin, and many others do not practice the Jewish faith. Therefore, the arguments of including Israel should not be limited merely to theological discussion. While I disagree, it is possible to state that the discussion of the inclusion of Hebrews could be solely limited to religious arguments.