The remaining Civ

[Xen]

A) the Byzantine presence in Italy influnced most states in the area, including the Normans

B) I see your point

C (D)-that is one of the exact reasons that israle should not be a civ in civ3c, or any further expansion(s) as released by Atari?the owner of the series, because all the contributions supposedlly made by the nation were in fact made by a religious group within that nation

 

[wildWolverine]

A) Which came first, the chicken or the egg? I still disagree w/ you here, based on chronology, but this point is not important to either of our viewpoints...

C) I think that we are arguing different things... I do not believe that Hebrews/Israelis should be a civ in conquest, as you would see if you read my original post...

 

[Xen]

well then... I guess there is nothing to argue about

 

[aaminion00]

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Quote: and lest thing.
Israeli country is a great accomplishment because we finaly have somwhere to run to from all you christians who think jews supose to die, and that jews are not worth to be called a great accomplishment...


First of all, I'm not Christian. I'm a Muslim. Although using that logic that makes me even worse. Second of all, Jews made up 15% of my hometown and were a well-known minority (untill Hitler came about) so I live by them and certainly don't wish them to die. Third of all, the Jews are the 2nd necessary civilization on my list (A Southeastern Asian country being the first) so I do not consider them insignificant at all. I was merely arguing (along with Xen) with quasar's remark that "Jews are the #1 civilization of all time", which is a whole different matter.

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Quote: Your not the only one running from the christians... if you think a lot of 'em dont like you, then imagine what they think of someone who worships the gods of Roma, whom they call pagan.... also, I think that I may be going a bit far in my rhetoric- I dont dislike jews, and I dont dislike israle, i do however trhink that if it is going to be represented in a game which should only include some of the biggest, grandest, and most important civilizations (and a great deal of space has been squanderd alrady on far more minor civs such as korea,and Zululand, while I do see the need for zululand, korea was just giving in commercially, but thats a differnt topic), and so if Israle was going to a civ,you would need to come up with some better reasons then religious ones, beacuse in the end, your life is probabley based on your deeds, and not your belifes.



Jews, and the ancestors of modern day Israelis have made a great impact on history. Considering that they never had an actual homeland during the last 2000 or so years, most of their gains are cultural and scientific as opposed to militaristic. They accomplished this during great persecution from a discriminatory Europe, but when in some more tolerant regimes (i.e. Caliphate of Cordova), they made some great things as far as literature and such go.

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Quote: using your logic, the U.S shoul not be in either, but like Byzantium, it is just way to importat a part of history to leave out


In my personal mod, I'm kicking the Americans out to make room for more native american cultures.

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P.S. WildWolverine, you're a Michigan fan from Ann Arbor too I gather . Nice to have more on Civfanatics. To stay on topic, why the Cheyenne as opposed to the Sioux (Was it you who suggested them?)

 

[Xen]

A)But the diaspora era jews are only the ancestors of a portion (the majority, but still only a portion,even if it is a large one) of the citizens of Israle

B)The point is that it was people of a religion, not a nationalty that made those contributions

C)off target a bit from my arguments;I like the offical civs myself, but what were you planning on doing with the empty American space, I mean its rare that we get a leader head that is on par with the official ones (the Atlas of Atlantis is the best I've seen, but I havent gone looking in a long time)

D)back on topic- my main argument is that "jews" cannot be a civilisation because it is only a religion, and has never fully (even in ancient times) had a nation of people all of the like religion, and israle is fairlly minor in world history, it is instead the religion of a people who were in that nation that made the contributions who should get credit, and not the nation itself

 

[wildWolverine]

I proposed the Cheyenne because I'm a Crazy Horse fan. I realize that many view them as only a subset of the Sioux, but...

Go Blue!

 

[aaminion00]

Xen, if I didn't know any better I't think you browsed the conquest forums more than me Anyways,

A) True but that fact is why I'd call the civilization "Israelis" instead of "the Jews", although for the most part it's supposed to represent the modern day israelis (majority), whose ancestors were spread throughout the area that was once, well, basicaly the roman empire.

B) Yes I guess but Israel was just the name given to the jews that got out of Egypt wasn't it? After all the debate and political correctness in the world, everybody knows who the "Israeli" civilization is supposed to represent.

C) I love discussing messing around with the civs in the game. Well first of all, I'd never completely change the whole game. More likely I'd just make my own personal little mod with my desired civs and I'd put all the flavor units I find on civfanatics in there.

But on there, well I excpect that the void will be filled by the Iriquois who, instead of expanding northward into forrested and icy canada, will go south into the better city locations of the real life United States (Westward expansion will eventually be halted by the Sioux). I think I'd make Iriquos settlers cost significantly more so that they wont reach abnormally huge, and unhistorical, empires.

As for the leaderheads, I'd replace the necessary ones with a firaxis leaderhead that looks closest to the needed leader. I'd replace the Tibetans for example, with the Korean leaderhead. Eventually of course, now that I've got Poser5, I'd make my own, which will of course be top quality (once I figure out how the damn thing works).

Anyways, if I figure out how to make good leaderheads I'll make one of Justinian just for you

Also, haven't you ever seen Piernik's Casimir III leaderhead? Very good. I immedeatly added the Poles to my game.

D) Hmm... well I can see your point but overall I think that those accomplishments should be with a civilization. This is how my world map will probably look like in my personal mod.

 

[Xen]

you see that "bump" on the west coast of africa, about right between the Zulu, and the mali? thats where the Azande would be, and could help curb zulu expansion north

I also think that you have a few to many european empires, cause at what you have now, Italy will be the larget witha whole TWO cities! (mabey up to four if they expand fast enough, hope fully the legions will surve them well...)

also, the Seminole indians in florida, or the Appache in the carolinas would be a nice filler in the americas

thanks for the offer of a Justinian- but could you make it Basil II, or Heracleus instead?(when you get good...) I dont like all of Justinians anti-semetic marrige laws, one of his big black spots on his other wise nice record....

 

[aaminion00]

Originally posted by Xen
you see that "bump" on the west coast of africa, about right between the Zulu, and the mali? thats where the Azande would be, and could help curb zulu expansion north

You mean the part that's completely covered by practically inhospitable jungle

Originally posted by Xen
I also think that you have a few to many european empires, cause at what you have now, Italy will be the larget witha whole TWO cities! (mabey up to four if they expand fast enough, hope fully the legions will surve them well...)

LOL. True, but I'm just partial to most of the civs Firaxis adds, and I felt some Eastern European civs were missing.

Originally posted by Xen
also, the Seminole indians in florida, or the Appache in the carolinas would be a nice filler in the americas

I thought about adding the Cherokee, but maybe I'll put in one of those two. We'll se...

Originally posted by Xen
thanks for the offer of a Justinian- but could you make it Basil II, or Heracleus instead?(when you get good...) I dont like all of Justinians anti-semetic marrige laws, one of his big black spots on his other wise nice record....

Sure. If I can make something that resembles a human, I'll make Basil or Heracleus as soon as I'm done with Alija Izetbegoviæ. Why not Constantine.


Good night

 

[wildWolverine]

also, the Seminole indians in florida, or the Appache in the carolinas would be a nice filler in the americas

While the Apache would be a good addition, they were from the Southwest, most definitely NOT from the Carolinas.

 

[Xen]

I confused them with the Cherokee, sorry - I think we should add the winnibago!

 

[Quasar1011]

Originally posted by Xen
I think we should add the winnibago!

And what would their UU be, a motor home?

Dangit, I actually had to work for 8 hours, and couldn't post on here.

Xen, recently I was reading Antiquities of the Jews, by the Roman historian Josephus. And yes, Josephus was a Jew as well.
His was the account of Alexander the Great sacrificing to Jehovah. I can post the account in an off-topic thread, if you like.

 

[Quasar1011]

The angel Gabriel told the prophet Daniel: "70 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy." What other civilization has ever had a commission like that? None! Has Israel accomplished any of these things so far? Yes, 3 of them. The other 3 are yet future.
By the way, this also makes Jerusalem the most important city in all of world history.

When Israel was displaced from its land by the Romans, Jews scattered throughout the Earth. In Civ3 gameplay, think of it like this: You look at your city screen of Paris, and it has one Israeli citizen in it. So does Moscow. So does New York. But in 1948, these citizens leave and re-form the nation of Israel. Now, how strong does a nation's culture and religion have to be to bind together its people for 2000 years without a homeland? This is why I quoted Napoleon, for he recognized that the Jews are a chosen people. Not better, not worse, just chosen.

I make no apologies for this statement: world history revolves around Israel and Jerusalem!

 

[Xen]

Josephus, or Iosephos/ Iosephus as his his name would have been in Latin was a roman legionary (or auxilla) as well- his works are not unknown to me

first off let me say, that your quote- The angel Gabriel told the prophet Daniel: "70 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.

A) applies ONLY to the faiths that belive in it, and that DOSE NOT, HOWEVER MEAN THAT IT IS TRUE - not to bash your choosen religion, but just because it is written down dose not mean it is true

B)Only the jews were forced out of JERUSALEM, not israle as a whole

C)almost no american jews left to go to israle

D)Alexandria is FAR more important then Jerusalem, so is Rome, and Athens

your argument centers on the fact that that the Judao-christan-islamic god is real, and while I(and most of the world) contest that fact, I dont want to get into a heated theological discussion here, or on the CFC forums at all

 

[Quasar1011]

Okay, Xen, that's fine. We can call a truce on this discussion.

I do however want to thank you for this statement:

Originally posted by Xen

your argument centers on the fact that that the Judao-christan-islamic god is real, and while I(and most of the world) contest that fact, I dont want to get into a heated theological discussion here, or on the CFC forums at all [/B]

Thanks for affirming that God is real, is a fact!

 

[Xen]

real only to you -to have a real discussion you have to look at it from the other persons point of veiw- your being that the Judao-christan-islamic god would be real, that dosent mean I, or the majority of the world belive the same, I suggest you do the same, and read it again, and mabey youll see that I never said it was my belife, but used in reference to yours

 

[Xen]

and as stated before, I am a devote polytheist- my reasons for doing so are personal, but ever since i changed my life has been filled with goodness,meaning,truth, and freedom

 

[Xen]

Dose this mean I win ?

and the Byzantines are in

 

[Furius]

I chose Mali, because I've actually heard of them and I want more African civs.
I disagree with a Polynesian civ because the Polynesians are not one civilization. However, I might be willing if it were the Maori (They being the largest Polynesian civilization).
I hate to get into and arguement with Xen (though I can beat him) but Byzantine wont get in because everything that makes it different (aside from the fashion thing which dosen't count) could be done to the Roman Civ during a game of civ III. Its fundamental statistics (Expansionist etc) are almost identical to Rome's.
Finally, a prophecy does not make Isreal the greatest civilization ever. When (If) that prophecy came to pass it would probably be included in the game (As USA has been for its superpowerdness). Of course I've heard a prophecy that claims the world will end in 2012 so that dosen't give much time for Isreal. Finally I must question a prophecy that claims a king will live for a millenium.

P.S. @ Xen, does that mean you acknowledge equivalent Gods (Jupiter=Baal) or just Roman ones?

 

[WickedSmurf]

Polynesians? Is that a joke? Well it wasn't funny. Why, really?

Israel? Haha yeah right... The only reason that country exists today is because the west had a guilty conscience over what the nazis did to the jews. So they robbed the Palestinians of their homeland and settled in the jews. It's not a civilization and thus should not be introduced in the game.

Those two were the two most voted for. I can't belive it.

I'd go for the Siamese or the Byz.