The remaining Civ

[aaminion00]

Oh god Xen, please don't tell me you're one of the Byzantine people [punch]

The Byzantines are not in there (thankfully). More likely they are in a conquest about the Ottoman Empire, and the Alexander the Great or Julius Ceaser leaderhead will be used. We already have the Ottomans, who accomplished more in general. Not only that but the Byzantine empire is technically just a continuation of the Roman Empire, AND its directly on top of the Ottoman empire on a world map. If the Byzantines become the next civ, I will never play a game of civ again.

 

[sourboy]

As long as they are from the southern hemisphere, I'm happy...

What's wrong with South America, South Pacific, Africa?
sure they have no major notables, but at least give them some representation!

 

[Xen]

Originally posted by aaminion00
Oh god Xen, please don't tell me you're one of the Byzantine people [punch]

The Byzantines are not in there (thankfully). More likely they are in a conquest about the Ottoman Empire, and the Alexander the Great or Julius Ceaser leaderhead will be used. We already have the Ottomans, who accomplished more in general. Not only that but the Byzantine empire is technically just a continuation of the Roman Empire, AND its directly on top of the Ottoman empire on a world map. If the Byzantines become the next civ, I will never play a game of civ again.

At the very least, they will be in a medieval scenario (not just about those stinking ottomans) and will have thier own leaderhead (it probabley just wont change from era to era) also I dont think you know how much western civilization owes to byzantium lets have a little count shall we?

- the Rennisance
Byzantium enterd a rennesance period several hundred years before western europe, and enterd and exited such periods sporadiccly to say the least after heracleius (or was is basil II, cant remember, but it was one of them I belive)
It was also Byzantine NOT musilm influences who so impressed the western european crusaders (remember, there view of the musilm was "dirty heathen", and so would have stayed far way from anything they had to offer culturally) this sowed the seeds for trade, which furthe brought in Byzantine influnecs

-Military
Of all medieval civs, the Byzantines were the ONLY one to keep an orderlly military, this to rubbed off on all those crusaders

-Governement
helped end all that ineffecient feudalism crap by showing what a strong central government could, particurally influenced England

NOW for the reasons why it was NOT a simple continueation of the Roman empire-

Byzantium used Greek instead of the offical Latin....
-It had a new capital
-It's army was differently organised (and stayed organised after -the fall of Rome)
-It's religion became slightly different
-It survived and thrived after the breakup of the empire
-And it evolved new customs, fashions, art and culture

yes its roots were Roman, but LONG before the fall of the western empire it had started to act as a compleatlly indipendent entity.

 

[Xen]

sorry for the crap spelling, I'm super fast typing to avoid a nasty storm coming up....

and i forgot to mention that they have Cataphracts

 

[SoCalian]

Personally I would love Byzantium as a Civ, exept for the fact that they are right on top of the ottomans on a world map. But I rarely play on world maps so....

 

[Xen]

well, technically if the ottomans were trully historicle, they would start at (I for get the specific town) in turkey, or going even farther back, some where around the easter caspian sea shore- remember after all, the they had to conqour Constantinople befor making it thier capital.Hmmmm this is somthing to find to put in a "corrected" Ottoman city list, besides, the Ottomans have a nice start place right at the foot of a big comfy chair

 

[AceDragon]

Bah. If anything it should be the Sioux, Cherokee, or Arawaks, possibly Inca. Why? Think about it. You have 30+ civs fighting it out over europe and asia then you have 1 civ fighting another for north and s. america ! More diversity in the americas.

 

[durfal]

AceDragon, last I checked the Inca and the Maya are already in Conquests.
Together with the Hatti, Sumerians, Dutch and Portuguese.
This thread is about the last unknown Civ.

 

[aaminion00]

Xen, let me clarify a bit. I would want the Byzantines as a civ, but even you can't deny that they fill the exact same niche as the Ottomans (Bridge civ between Europe and Asia). The biggest reason why I'll be EXTREMELY dissapointed if the Byzantines were chosen is because there aer SO many other noteworthy civilizations from other parts of the globe that are currently completely empty. The last thing I would want is to put my Conquests CD in and find the Byzantines in there, while Southeast Asia, most of North America, and Southeast Asia are completely empty. Whooptedoo, a 3rd Anatolian civ.

But yes I know that the Byzantines were very important.

However, your point about the rennaisance being caused by Byzantium rather than Muslim influences is greatly exxagarated. Why did they have to go to a place dominated by other religions to find out about Byzantine culture, as opposed to simply traveling to the fellow christian city of Byzantium, as they could've done for the last several centuries. Not to mention the tremendous impact in mathematics, science, and medicine that Muslim scholars made.

 

[Xen]

I suppose I (kinda) agree with your statement on there being lots of other civs who could both improve gameplay, and improve acuracy of the game a bit other then the Byzantines

BUT

I wasnt exagerating about Byzantine impact (the justifacation for being a good civ3 civ to the mods who I know by now must be thinking that this should be sent to the history area....)

A)Yes there was trade during the middle ages, and it was the superstructure upon which rennisance trade was based, but, I think youll agree, that merchants are not, nlr ever have been a gate way of culture, add this on to the fact that it was Byzantine merchants who were doing most of the trading

B)The crusades happend in once Byzantine territories

C)Yes Muslim influeces inventually grew very stron in the west, but ONLY aftyer the precedent had been set by direct contact with Byzantium

D) -and this is the killer- They had Cataphracts , which noone ca argue would be the coolest knight replacement unit for a western, if not any civ period.

 

[mrtn]

I'll join the fray about the Byzantines.

Xen:

-Military
Of all medieval civs, the Byzantines were the ONLY one to keep an orderlly military, this to rubbed off on all those crusaders

-Governement
helped end all that ineffecient feudalism crap by showing what a strong central government could, particurally influenced England

At the time of the crusades the Byzantines where very weakened. The Third Crusade ended in Constantinople, because Venize bribed the crusaders to sack Constantinople instead of trying to retake the holy lands. The crusades where some of the nails in Byzantium's coffin, and the only thing the Byzantines learned the crusaders was that if someone has gold, and you have steel, you acquire some of that gold yourself.

The governing of the byzantine lands where influenced by western feudalism, not the other way around.

And of course you can't fit both the Ottomans and the Byzantines on any world map without a big shoe horn.

I think the Byzantines are very interesting, but I don't think they fit as a normal civ3 civ. You could always make a nice Byzantine scenario though.

 

[Xen]

A)The ways Byzantine leadership differd from feudalism

-the regional govenors had no say what-so -ever in the running of of the empire (only the local "provinces"-I forget the exact term) if the emperor said "NO!" (nobles did)

-The government was higly centralised, to focused on the emperor, and no one else

-loyalty was held to the emperor, not the provincial govenors

-recritment of soilders was to the empire in full, not to simple lords as in feudalism

B)I never said that the crusades were a good thing for the Byzantine empire, only that its effects were crucial on the re-developmt of western civilisation

C)Even if the Byzantine military was not enough to defen it from capture by crusaders (but it WAS re-captured by Byzantine reminant forces), the simple fact that our military is the way it is today is a simple tribute to Byzantine re-education of the west by force

D)The Byzantines were among the most crucial civs of the middle ages, halting the Musim hordes (no offence intended, used for dramatic effect), and leaving western europe spared from the forces until the time when they could start to defend themselves with actualk results (sure easten europe was sKrewed, but the western states proved a match for the Ottomans) this alone should justify them being a civ, even if thiere culture wasent dramaticly differnt enough from the rest of the worlds, but is was, and another tally added to the slate of Byzantium.

 

[jack merchant]

The way I understood it, there would be 7 fully playable new civilizations, plus civilizations that will only be in scenarios. What with the info we have, I think we can only be sure about the Dutch, Portuguese, Maya, Incans and Sumerians.... I'm not at all sure about the Hittites.... maybe they're only in the cradle of civilization scenario ? That would at least leave place for the Abyssinians (who must be in IMHO) and some SE-Asian civ.

I really like Byzantium and would love for it to be included, but I think for balance and spreading purposes the other two would be needed more.

 

[Licinio]

Austria could be a civilization... it was a strong Empire in the past...

 

[durfal]

.... I'm not at all sure about the Hittites.... maybe they're only in the cradle of civilization scenario ?

Sorry but they are allready confirmed.
The leaderhead is on the official site (a guy named Mursilis) and their UU is the 3 Man Chariot.
And I have seen a screenshot somewhere where they were together with the germans. And the germans certainly weren't at the cradle of civilization.

They weren't my first choice either and the Sumerians are in my tast almost the same as the Babylonians.
I there had to be 2 new civs from the middle east I would have apriciated Byzantium and the Hebrew more.
But I think the Hebrew would have been more then enough for that region. I also think we need an african civ and an south east asian or oceanian civ.

 

[Xen]

The Byzantines would be a mediterranian civ, not middle eastern

 

[Xen]

or at a stretch (a big one at that) a european one (as an off shoot of the Roman empre, one would think that they would be in the same culture group)

 

[SoCalian]

I am firmly against haveing any more European or Mediteranian or Mid Eastern Civs in the game. That area is already to crowded as it is lat alone with the Duthch and Portugese being added (no offense intended). I feel that Friaxis has done a horrid job of choosing new civs (hopefully that will be made up with everything else that is being added). The only good ones are the Incas and Mayans and I'm not so sure about the Mayans. They are very close to the Aztecs. Based on the "Map Fill" theory here is a list that I fell is the best (inorder of inprtance to the wourld map):

Incas
Ghana
Australians
Khemer
Ethiopia
Brazil
Souix

If you disregard the "Map Fill" theory here is a list of good civs based on all other accolads ( again in order of Importance):

Hebrews
Byzantium
Ethiopians
Incas
Dutch
Portugese
Khemer

I personally would prefere the first listand think that the Civs on it would be interesting to play. I also would have added the polynesians to the first list if it wern't for 2 reasons. 1) there is only room for 7 civs. 2) They are so easy to add that other more deserving civs should have taken there spot exp. Canada.

 

[Hygro]

I'm with Chris on this one why not _____ ?

It almost sucks being a beta tester... I can't join in the speculation which is half the fun!

and Calcagus (thats the name right?) there's no way with "so many testers" anything would be leaked over the net like that. Security and honosty run high in this team.

 

[Quasar1011]

I see my vote just broke the tie. I voted for the most important civilization in all of world history, the Hebrews!