The Republic: ignore the game and look at history

Kryten

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This article is a follow on from a discussion between Xen and myself in the ‘New Units Forum’, which I thought would be more appropriate here in the ‘History Forum’.
Basically, the whole civ series has misrepresented this type of ancient government, so much so that people are beginning to believe that the game is right and history is wrong!
Well, I’d like to take this opportunity to set the record straight.

The Types Of Ancient Government
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Broadly speaking, there were three main types:-
* Rule by one man = Tyranny, Dictatorships, Emperors and Monarchies.
* Rule by a small elite = Timocracy, Aristocracy and Oligarchy.
* Rule by the people = Athenian Democracy and the Roman Republic.

Tyrannies, Dictatorships, and Emperors all rule by the force of the army. Anyone can be leader; a corrupt politician, a rebellious general, even the son of an ex-slave. All they need is the support of the army.
Monarchies don’t require military support (although it doesn’t hurt to have it), as only a member of the royal family can rule. You or I couldn’t suddenly claim “I am King!” for example, because not only would the nobles laugh at us, so would the common people, as we don’t have ‘royal blood’ in our veins.
This made Monarchies far more stable....although every Monarch had to watch other members of their immediate family very, very closely! ;)

Timocracies, Aristocracies and Oligarchies are ruled by a small elite section of the population, usually by self-seeking rich land owners, whose main priority is to maintain their privileges by keeping the common people in their place.
Almost all the city-states of ancient Greece were of this type, as were many of the various Celtic tribes of Briton & Gaul (at least, those that weren’t ruled by dictatorships or kings). Carthage is another example, as the common people had very little say in the running of the state.
Sparta is an unusual example. This was a very strict ‘caste’ society, with the relatively few Spartites at the top wielding all the political power, the more numerous Perioeci (who were free citizens, with no power) below them, and a huge mass of serfs called Helots at the bottom with no freedom whatsoever (but unlike slaves, Helots could not be sold).

Athenian Democracy, which began in 509BC, was rule from the bottom up rather than from the top down. All the male citizens were required by law to vote on every single issue of state policy.
Unlike today’s democracies, this was DIRECT voting....not the selection of someone to represent a section of the population.
This meant that Athenian Democracy was little more than institutionalised mob rule....gifted demagogues would frequently use their skill in oratory to lead the people from one wild policy change after another, and every male citizen would be required to vote on a subject, even if they had absolutely no idea of what is was about!
(Imagine yourself being asked to vote on some modern day complex fiscal policy....just because you have a vote does not mean that you are a good economist. :D)
Despite what many scholars today would have you believe, Athenian Democracy was not a great success, as very few ancient people rushed to adopt this type of government.

The Roman Republic on the other hand, which was unique to Rome when they threw off their Etruscan kings in 510BC, was far more successful.
Originally, like most city-states, this was an Oligarchy of the rich and powerful patricians. But after nearly a century of bloodless class struggles (with the common plebeians going on strike several times), it evolved into a highly structured system of government.
Its strength was due to being a mixture of all the above types of government.
There were the dictatorial powers of the two yearly elected Consuls, the self seeking powers of the oligarchial Senate, and the democracy of the common people in the Popular Assemblies.
All these different elements acted as a check upon each other, making the Roman Republic a far more stable institution than Athenian Democracy.

The Limitations Of The Republic
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All the civ games have automatically assumed that a Republic is superior to a Monarchy.
Why?
Let’s look at the historical facts:-
Athenian Democracy and the Roman Republic were both designed to rule A SINGLE CITY.
The Republic did well for the first 400 years, but the strain proved to be too much for it, and the whole system began to fall apart in the 1st century BC. After several civil wars it finally collapsed altogether and Rome ended up under the dictatorship of the emperors for the next 500 years in the west, and some 1,200 years in the east.
An ancient Republic was just not capable of ruling a far flung empire.
Plus the fact that every civilization in the world, ALL of them, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, was a Monarchy of one sort or another during the Dark Ages and the early Medieval period.

So why oh why does every civ in the game become a Republic before the Middle Ages?
And how on earth can you have a feudal society with Knights under a representative government? The two are the complete opposite of each other! :crazyeye:

Just because it’s in a game, doesn’t mean that it is right. ;)
 
As for spartan governmet, in relation to the Spartan full citizens, I think the government is most like a republic, although the system in total has a felling of Oligarchy to it- but in this case a bunch of utterlly equal uber soldires rather then corrupt nobles...
 
Hmmmm, this thread seems to be a good place to ask a Democracy/Republic question I've been wondering about. Is Britain more of a Republic than a 'true' Democracy? We elect representatives of the people (MPs) who then go and argue over issues for us. From my understanding, a 'true' democracy would mean that each and every citizen could vote on any issue that arose. Am I wrong, or is modern day Britain (and quite possible the USA too) a Republic?

You shld ask this in Off-topic, not History. Politics is to be contained therein. ;) - XIII
 
Originally posted by Kryten
Monarchies don’t require military support (although it doesn’t hurt to have it), as only a member of the royal family can rule. You or I couldn’t suddenly claim “I am King!” for example, because not only would the nobles laugh at us, so would the common people, as we don’t have ‘royal blood’ in our veins.
This made Monarchies far more stable....although every Monarch had to watch other members of their immediate family very, very closely! ;)
Henry VII's relationship to the Plantagenets was quite slim, his mother being a great-granddaughter of Edward III's third son, John of Gaunt. Henry was able to say "I am King!" because he did have a victorious army behind him.
 
but, he was still in blood of the fmilly right?
 
Originally posted by Doshin

Is Britain more of a Republic than a 'true' Democracy? We elect representatives of the people (MPs) who then go and argue over issues for us. From my understanding, a 'true' democracy would mean that each and every citizen could vote on any issue that arose. Am I wrong, or is modern day Britain (and quite possible the USA too) a Republic?

A good question! The Roman definition of republic came from
two words 'res' meaning state and 'publica' meeting the people.
They regarded a republic as the alternative to a monarchy and would never have regarded Britain, with a Queen, as a republic.

However us Brits can not individually vote on laws in the manner that the Greek democracies could do; so Britain is not a true democracy.

In the 18th and 19th century, Britain regarded itself as a consitutional monarchy; to distinguish it from absolute monarchies such as the Russian Tsars.

Then there is the EU to consider.

As the monarchy is now less significant, Britain is primarily a 'representative democratic member state of the european union'.
 
Or, in other words, a republic-by-default, with the last vestiges of a monarchy used for primarily (if not exclusivlly) cerimonial purposes
 
Originally posted by Xen
As for spartan governmet, in relation to the Spartan full citizens, I think the government is most like a republic....

....and no doubt the Oligarchies of Argos, Corinth, Thebes, and all the rest would have said the same thing.....
"We, the small select few, who are nominated for life to the city council because of our ancestory or wealth, are fully Republican because we discus and vote on all major issues of state policy.
Of course, we don't let the common people have any say.
They may allow it in Athens, but we don't allow it here!"
:D

Strickly speaking, the concept of a Republic is "rule by the people, without a king"....the French Republic for example.
Unlike the ancient governments, all modern Democracies & Republics are representative voting systems (we vote for someone to represent us), whereas Athenian Democracy was a direct voting system.
Rome was also partly a representative system, as the Consuls, Praetors, Aediles, Quaestors, and other magistrates had to be nominated and elected.
(You could liken modern Britain to a 'Democratic Dictatorship with a figurehead Monarch"....once you vote a particular party into power, they do exactly what they like for five years until the next lot get in, who also do exactly what they like! :lol:
The people are never asked what their opinion is via referendums.... ;) )

I was being a bit simplistic when I said:-
"Monarchies don’t require military support (although it doesn’t hurt to have it), as only a member of the royal family can rule."
To be honest, all you need to do to become 'of the royal blood' is to marry into the reigning dynasty's family.
Still, that is a little bit harder than just being a rebellious general.
 
Thanks for the answers :) (XIII: I think it is a somewhat historical question. For a large part of the twentieth century Britain and America have justified their actions on the basis that they are democracies, and it is 'the will of the people'. When in fact it isn't always....)

To get back to the original point, I think civ is just taking a modern viewpoint on the matter. The idea that Athens and Rome had somewhat representative governments seems very advanced for their point in time, and so they are deemed the 'better' government. History showed then that the systems could, and did collapse. But the same happened more recently to the various monarchies around Europe and Asia. In our minds people think 'we are a democracy/republic. Therefore our system replaced the lesser form of government, a monarchy.' This is then implemented in the game. Monarchies were essential for keeping nations united while they evolved.... which civ doesn't reflect.

The flip side of the coin is that people nowadays would accept a monarchical system of goverment if we went to war. Can you imagine Winston Churchill: "We shall fight them on the beaches.... while I reign over as your king so there is no war wearinous!!! MWAAHAHAHAH"

It just wouldn't happen :) Civ is about interpreting history... and you obviously can't interpret the exact real world otherwise the game would be far too complicated.
 
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