The Scottish civ

[PhilBowles]

I was thinking that since Scotland is essentially a science/production themed take on what would have been the Celts in past games, Ireland could instead focus on a culture/faith angle. Give them similar bonuses to GP generation but a different UU, UA and LUA and you get a different civ that has a built in similarity to the Scots, to serve as a nod to their shared Celtic heritage.

I just don't see the Scots as presented in Civ VI as having anything at all to do with the Celts - I and others expected them to be the 'unblobbed' Celts, but we were wrong. As I say, it's closer to Civ V Sweden - part of a former blob but sufficiently different in both time period and game focus from the original blob that it can exist alongside it in the same game. Civ Celts have always been a warrior civ, in Civ V with a religious angle thrown in - despite their leader Scotland isn't at all a warrior civ; even its unique is a recon unit. They seemed pretty deliberate in not giving the Scots any Celtic trappings at all.

 

[Katakanja]

I just don't see the Scots as presented in Civ VI as having anything at all to do with the Celts - I and others expected them to be the 'unblobbed' Celts, but we were wrong. As I say, it's closer to Civ V Sweden - part of a former blob but sufficiently different in both time period and game focus from the original blob that it can exist alongside it in the same game. Civ Celts have always been a warrior civ, in Civ V with a religious angle thrown in - despite their leader Scotland isn't at all a warrior civ; even its unique is a recon unit. They seemed pretty deliberate in not giving the Scots any Celtic trappings at all.

True. Tbh, I'm Irish and after having played 200 turns as Scotland this evening I now just want them to make an equally powerful GP-powerhouse Irish civ. So my motivations are biased

 

[kamex]

Could be worse. Could have made the leader William Wallace because Mel Gibson...

 

[SomeGuyHere]

I find it annoying that England is basically the British empire. At least in Civ 5 they had a leader that was before the act of the union (or even the personal union since James was directly after Elizabeth).

Scotland seems to have the same issue. It’s a shame really. The UK has enough history that both civs could be unique and true to their heritage.

Stirling was the Capital at one point. James VI (of Scotland) and I (of England) was crowned there.

 

[blackcatatonic]

Having fun with Scotland so far but I agree on the choice of capital not being the best. And yes, I had to look up Haddington when I founded it as I had never heard of the place

 

[Futumch]

I have a coastal city called Och Aye the Noo, and cities called Haggis and Sporran. They're probably not on the official city list.

 

[Zaarin]

The civ design is a mess. As for the language, Robert should be speaking Norman, but I'm guessing Firaxis thought either A) people would throw a fit if the Scottish leader was speaking a language that sounds French or B) someone at Firaxis really likes Scots, realized it was anachronistic, so made Robert speak Scots' ancestor Northumbrian Middle English (an assumption based on the fact that it's not West Midlands or Kentish). Personally, I'm astonished that he's not anachronistically speaking Scottish Gaelic (should be Middle Irish technically).

I think Robert's voice actor does a horrible job, though; I've heard undergrad students recite Chaucer with better accent and more feeling.

 

[PhilBowles]

The civ design is a mess. As for the language, Robert should be speaking Norman, but I'm guessing Firaxis thought either A) people would throw a fit if the Scottish leader was speaking a language that sounds French or B) someone at Firaxis really likes Scots, realized it was anachronistic, so made Robert speak Scots' ancestor Northumbrian Middle English (an assumption based on the fact that it's not West Midlands or Kentish). Personally, I'm astonished that he's not anachronistically speaking Scottish Gaelic (should be Middle Irish technically).

I think Robert's voice actor does a horrible job, though; I've heard undergrad students recite Chaucer with better accent and more feeling.

I think they chose a modern Scottish accent deliberately as being recognizable, despite being anachronistic.

 

[Zaarin]

I think they chose a modern Scottish accent deliberately as being recognizable, despite being anachronistic.

His accent actually sounds very American to my ears--which is appropriate, as American accents are generally more conservative than most English accents.

To clarify, he is speaking Middle English, but neither Kentish (Chaucer, ancestor of Modern English) nor West Midlands (Sir Gawain and the Green Knight), by which I assume he speaks Northumbrian (the ancestor of modern Scots). He's not speaking Scottish Modern English nor Modern Scots.

 

[God of Kings]

Oh, and there's the Golf Course.

It would have been interesting if in addition to Golf Courses, Robert the Bruce could construct Curling Rinks instead of Golf Courses on snow or tundra tiles with the same bonuses.

 

[PhilBowles]

His accent actually sounds very American to my ears--which is appropriate, as American accents are generally more conservative than most English accents.

To clarify, he is speaking Middle English, but neither Kentish (Chaucer, ancestor of Modern English) nor West Midlands (Sir Gawain and the Green Knight), by which I assume he speaks Northumbrian (the ancestor of modern Scots). He's not speaking Scottish Modern English nor Modern Scots.

I meant the accent is anachronistic for his language. I know the language is either Middle English or a variant of Scots sufficiently early that it's not distinguishable without knowing the language well.

Reconstructions of Middle English I've heard suggest the accent would sound close to those of modern Scandinavian languages, which seems especially likely for variants emerging from the Danelaw.

 

[Pangur Bán]

As for the language, Robert should be speaking Norman, but I'm guessing Firaxis thought either A) people would throw a fit if the Scottish leader was speaking a . Personally, I'm astonished that he's not anachronistically speaking Scottish Gaelic (should be Middle Irish technically).

Yes, I think Anglo-Norman French would be his language for diplomatic purposes. He would have spoken Gaelic as well, but Scottish Gaelic wasn't standardised (just like modern Scots isn't standardized) and people either would have spoken very local dialects or some form of late Middle Irish (the way modern Scots will either speak a local dialect or try to speak very standard English [with an accent]).

I find it annoying that England is basically the British empire. At least in Civ 5 they had a leader that was before the act of the union (or even the personal union since James was directly after Elizabeth).

If the game is about 'history of Civilization', then it is pretty unreasonable to draw a distinction between Britain and England, since they are pretty much the same thing in the same way that Muscovy and Russia are--Scots and Welsh are pretty much the only people who would insist on the distinction, in order to delude ourselves that we are not conquered and be more content with our current lot! The problem here is that when you do that AND you have a Scottish civ, you really need to make the Scottish civ Scottish. Particularly, if you have Highlander UUs, they should be in Scottish, i.e. Jacobite garb, not as Anglo-British Redcoats.

I wonder if this is motivated by some postcolonialist anxiety about constantly depicting 'Celts' as spiritualistic Romantic primitives. Maybe they think an anglicized scientific, modern Scottish civ is an overdue counter to this? (e.g. the Edinburgh forest people of Civ V)

 

[PhilBowles]

I find it annoying that England is basically the British empire. At least in Civ 5 they had a leader that was before the act of the union (or even the personal union since James was directly after Elizabeth).

While England was a major European - and briefly global - power in its own right for much of its history, it unquestionably reached its height within the British Empire. The civ wouldn't be as deserving of a spot as one of the default base game civs without that part of its history, so it's fairly nonsensical to insist that England must be a pre-British version of the civ. Great Britain is in effect a successor state to England, and in the colonial era itself even people from other regions of Britain and from the colonies either used the words interchangeably or favoured 'England'. Kipling, for instance, was Indian but in the vast majority of his work referred to England - and to himself as English - over Britain/British.

 

[Arianrhod]

The capital is Stirling, which was never a capital. Scotland's historic capital before it was Edinburgh was Scone / Perth, where its kings were crowned.

Adding to that, the Stone of Scone is a relic in the game, is it not? So it's not like they would've been entirely unaware of it.

And then furthermore they had the chance to make an achievement out of getting the Stone of Scone and placing it in the palace at Scone. Yet they didn't. It's like I don't even know what I'm playing anymore.

 

[Uberfrog]

Adding to that, the Stone of Scone is a relic in the game, is it not? So it's not like they would've been entirely unaware of it.

And then furthermore they had the chance to make an achievement out of getting the Stone of Scone and placing it in the palace at Scone. Yet they didn't. It's like I don't even know what I'm playing anymore.

They have missed a trick indeed.

 

[Pangur Bán]

The redcoat Highlander would need new art work (at least changing the red to blue), but surely altering the city list is just a very minor fix?

 

[jozef57]

scots my first game r&f went great untill the free citys who left korea are producing so many units and keep atacking i fear this game is ost can not build enough to keep them off and becourse jsut need to build defence things van not win otherwise, still love this pord and science civ and will play it often

 

[Abraxis]

By FAR the most egregious error is the physical representation of Mr.theBruce himself. You see him with that brown hair, those blue eyes, that pale skin!

NO, Robby the B shed these trappings centuries ago! He looks nothing like that anymore!!

Spoiler :

How could they get it so wrong?!

 

[Zaarin]

By FAR the most egregious error is the physical representation of Mr.theBruce himself. You see him with that brown hair, those blue eyes, that pale skin!

Actually, his eyes are green.

 

[Gabhar]

When it comes to language choices for leaders imo it's better to use a language that's accurate but also emblematic of the civ. Robert's dialogue being in Norman French would be kind of disappointing. Why they chose Middle English over Gaelic, I don't know. Maybe they actually are planning to do medieval Ireland/Gaul and figured one Goidelic/Celtic speaking leader is enough. More likely they just figured getting an English speaker would be easier than medieval Gaelic. Also lol at wording of the Civilopedia entry "In the Gaelic language the Kingdom of Alba translates as the Kingdom of Scotland".

That aside, the gameplay implementation is mostly solid. I have issues with the limitations of golf courses themselves as opposed to just their amenity, and the overly situational nature of the leader ability. The casus belli rarely becomes available in my experience.