[BTS] The (sigh) emperor warm-up exercise

[Long try]

To axe war effectively on tough difficulty you need a close target and go for copper immediately i.e second city. You want a fast attack. And Pericles is there...if the idea was to kill him. Which is fine. But maybe he's a trade partner for the future?
Mao is technically close enough (maybe, rule of thumb is less than 10 tiles to capital I think) but a harder, farther target that you'd be expanding AWAY from to get the copper. Not impossible but not the best option I think, especially as axewars are more about putting down a weakling or taking land by force with no other option.

Very convincing indeed. Lesson learned. I won't rush Mao. Generally, I like to leave Perry alone (i.e. blocking ) & trade. No reason to attack a peaceful civ, hehe.

The question is whether the lake in question by that cow is indeed large enough. It's not known yet from what is seen, can only reliably infer 8 lake tiles so far in that last pic. More intel is needed before pulling that trigger unless you like to gamble :/

I don't like gambling, so I guess I'll be satisfied with plan A in case we can't scout.

What are you seeking to find out, generally? How quickly to get one in there?

Er.. I wanted to check if we can indeed build a lighthouse next to a 10-tile lake, but it's not very relevant now that plan A is favored.

And if it was ambiguous, I'm not suggesting to take the cyan spot as the 2nd city -- it's an option AFTER the one that block Pericles. It would be a third city. a typical 3rd city in a decent capitol comes around T45-50, conveniently right around that border pop time for the copper.

Yeah, I concur. Blocking is always the priority in my mind.

Not trying to monopolize the discussion

Nonsense, your comments can't prevent others making some. Furthermore, all of your input is valuable & appreciated.

Looking at the Ai culture high chance that Pecilles will grab that ivory with his culture. You would need heavy culture pressure to grab this back.

Agree. That's why we will absolutely need a monument, better now than later. For that very reason, settling on the PH is superior to the grass 1S of rice..

You do need to ensure the Ai does not try to grab your copper.

I don't know about BtS AI, but if our capital's 3rd ring expanded already, then is there a chance the AI still settle next to the copper to culture-thief it?

 

[Gumbolt]

Your right I misread the year on your picture. You should be 100% safe to grab the ivory. So he has had 2 border pops already. A 3rd would take 50-100 turns.

I would be building a second settler now. You want that pigs/corn site before the AI. 2nd worker now is too soon. New city only really has corn to develop. Roads now would be wasteful.

 

[Long try]

on Immortal
Animals at 9
First archer spotted at 27
barbs entering at T50 (2000BC)
I didn't meet any of the AIs but typically I get 3rd city a little faster than them (t48 in this game, so my third city was actually probably a little slower and prompted the barb rush by pushing the average up to 3 cities per team in the world)
So it could be cutting it close if the AI expands a bit faster in Emperor K-Mod. It's doable with warriors if you bust well and with BW you can whip in emergency. Could be a bad habit for Deity level play.
To clarify a little bit, after city 2 in the East, I see a decision between:
1.) Riding out the next ~20-22 turns with just warriors + fogbust, then hook up copper
2.) settling copper 1st ring to save a couple turns on copper hook up
3.) teching Archery and ignoring copper site for cities elsewhere

Wow, I didn't see your edit until now. Useful info. I favor 1), for 2) site doesn't have any food, and I won't rush anybody; and 3) is a bit conservative because this is less than Immortal and the map is crowded, thus scouts are roaming frequently.

Your right I misread the year on your picture. You should be 100% safe to grab the ivory. So he has had 2 border pops already. A 3rd would take 50-100 turns.
I would be building a second settler now. You want that pigs/corn site before the AI. 2nd worker now is too soon. New city only really has corn to develop. Roads now would be wasteful.

If I read it right, then we'll have 3 cities with only 1 worker, right? This is new, I've never done it. Might try to see

 

[Gumbolt]

I often do that. As the first city only needs major resources worked. 2nd city can always whip a worker. Pends how quickly the AI go war mode here? As you previously stated the start here will be a land grab exercise.

 

[Long try]

News, everyone! Our scout has found some interesting stuffs:

Spoiler :

Carthage doesn't have horse because that fogged tile is a forest. Mao doesn't have copper, either, because it's actually on a beautiful site 5 tiles from his capital (it's 8 tiles from us).

• q25: should we race for the Green spot? You know, deny Mao copper, get gems in the process. Downsides are it's far from our land, so it will be a long time before the city can get connected. It may have to build units itself. The Green spot may also drain our gold, but with 2 gems it can pay for itself long term. In any case, the city will be a thorn in the side of Mao & possibly Boudispank, so it will likely provoke war with the 2 most aggressive jerks on the map. On a small plus note, that spearhead city will always be the target in case of war, so we know where to concentrate our defense.
  Anyway, I have put up a poll for this important question.
  
• q26: What do you think of the Red spot dead on an incense desert, the Orange spot on a desert hill and the Yellow one on a GH? Green aside, I want to found cities in that order. Together R & O spots can block Mao, I think. Y spot will have access to corn in Wrathful city's 3rd ring by the time it is settled, and Marble in the future.

 

[Gumbolt]

Q25. No. Too far away and barbs roaming? Can you really protect that? Jungle would provide health issues?
Q26 No! Too far away? No resources on inner ring? What would it do for 10+ turns?

Why are you not settling Corn/pigs/marble site? 2 food resources and marble. A city with cow resource in inner ring with copper will be good.

You really need to post more land pictures. You have yellow and red spots and you have to work out what resources are where.

That scout should be protecting your next city site unless you have a warrior somewhere?

You could post latest save but don't supply the 4000bc save till end of game. Then less risk of play throughs.

Hmmm had further thoughts.
So you basically want to split off pigs and have a corn/sheep city long term. Have you teched AH yet? It will make the orange site less attractive in short term.

The red site will have 3 inland lakes. Would need a lighthouse. No forest to help this. No food resource without border pop. Overall any new city needs food that you can improve within your cultural area. You have no river tiles here? Can you irrigate any of these land tiles?

You do need to think about defensive units too soon. If your skipping archery you will want axes or archers.

 

[Long try]

and barbs roaming?

Actually, no. Or not yet. I've only seen a lion & a panther. Maybe you're too used to Deity it's strange to come back to emperor, eh?

A city with cow resource in inner ring with copper will be good.

Are you saying that tile between the cow & the spice in this overall pic?

Spoiler :

I'm not really fond of it. Cow only provides +4F & we'll need 2nd ring to get copper & the first grassland farm. Basically I think it's similar to the mentioned Green spot, but way way worse.

You really need to post more land pictures. You have yellow and red spots and you have to work out what resources are where.

OK here is my proposed dot map:

Spoiler :

In the order of: Green - Red - Orange - Yellow - Cyan - Blue - Violet, if Green is voted yes. Interestingly, the poll now has equal amounts of votes on both options, so I'm undecided too.

• Red spot has wet rice & plain sheep. Coastal, +3F from lakes. 2 more green tiles.
• Orange spot has pig & 2 spices. Hills & forests are there to boost. Will Mao sneaks in between the gap between R & O when they haven't expanded culturally yet?
  To explain why I'm inclined toward splitting the pig-corn-marble site, I need to refer to the case of Yellow spot, which in turn is involved by Violet spot. Ok, here goes:
• Violet has 1 fish... and that's it. Damn that fish. It makes planning a nearby coastal city to grab the sheep impossible.
• Yellow has 1 ready-off-the-bat corn, marble, sheep & can share Wrathful city's gold tile! Lotsa of forests.
• Cyan has silk and at least 1 fish. I haven't scouted that tundra coast, so the spot can be changed. It shares a sheep with Red.
• Blue is buried in the scoreboard (sorry), so you may have to squint at that Augustus/Mao gap. Like Violet, it has 1 fish. The whole B - V combo is the only possible configuration up north. They affect Orange - a spot 8 tiles away, wow!

The red site will have 3 inland lakes. Would need a lighthouse. No forest to help this. No food resource without border pop. Overall any new city needs food that you can improve within your cultural area. You have no river tiles here? Can you irrigate any of these land tiles?

Yes we can farm that grassland right away, provided we have a worker when settling. Our land is surprisingly & depressingly devoid of running water. Only by hammering Mao can we access rivers. Ouch!

You do need to think about defensive units too soon.

I needed to read it a few times to realize you didn't mean 'too soon', but instead maybe 'soon, too' My research of Writing is just a placeholder for now. What would you guys recommend? Archery? AH? Something else? And why?

 

[Gumbolt]

First of all much better map.

With K mod AI can start plotting wars quite early. So not sure how quickly you might need defences. If you can hook up copper that is great. The only issue would be you have one source of copper and no roads yet. If you settle the green site great. You will be burning 4-5 worker turns to reach the site. Assuming Carthage doesn't grab it soon.

Red site with a farmed grassland would give growth of 9-10 turns? You would need to farm the grassland first. In mean time you might lose rice/cows to Carthage. Carthage will settle a 2nd city somewhere soon. Your scout should be heading back to look for this or provide passage for your settler/worker. I would rather focus on sites with 5f/6f food resources. Normally with food in inner ring.

The cow/copper site would get the copper through your capital border pop in 11 turns. You seem set on the green site so give it a go.Just make sure you get a worker there.

If you go green then follow up with Orange. Don't leave the city isolated. The green site will have Carthage culture soon when it's borders pop in 11 turns. He will tech quickly with 2 x gems.

Going forward you want a second worker and some warriors or axes. You won't want to whip your capital. Archery is a cheap tech.

I assume your second city is growing to size 2 on the corn? Then to whip once you have 30H invested. Fress up capital for 1-2 warriors and a further settler.

You might as well spend the 82 gold you have in treasury. Science 100%.

 

[Long try]

With K mod AI can start plotting wars quite early.

It also looks like they will hide their motives by always saying "we don't like you enough" while instead they should say "we have too much on our hands". Pretty smartass AIs.

Your scout should be heading back to look for this or provide passage for your settler/worker.

I think maybe we can pull the warrior currently at Yellow spot to clear passage & let the scout do some map busting of the jungle bell? That was my initial thought, but now I think your experienced advice really makes more sense.
Also, by saying 'settler/worker' did you imply our only worker? Then ArchGhost town (our 2nd city) will have nobody to improve the rice & the ivory... Where can we get that manpower? Build 1 in Wrathful city after this settler?

I would rather focus on sites with 5f/6f food resources. Normally with food in inner ring.

That's my dream too. Unfortunately on this map that condition is rare. Aside from the mentioned marble-pig-corn spot, we don't have lots of options.

You seem set on the green site so give it a go.

Thanks, but I would like to listen to you guys opinions via the opened poll; partly because I think my own liking is biased & inexperienced.
On another point, please note that the dot map is just my proposal for your comments & analyses. I'd be happy to change it when you guys have some better plans.

If you go green then follow up with Orange. Don't leave the city isolated. The green site will have Carthage culture soon when it's borders pop in 11 turns. He will tech quickly with 2 x gems.

Every sentence is so on-the-point. Actually with K-mod I've seen our 2nd site ArchGhost town having Perry's culture already.

Archery is a cheap tech.

Agree, I've changed research to Archery.

Fress up capital for 1-2 warriors and a further settler.

I don't really get what you meant in the last paragraph. Apology for my slow understanding, English is not my 1st language. By whipping the monument when the 2nd city reaches size 2, how can it free up the capital? And which city will build those 1-2 warriors & that further settler?

 

[Gumbolt]

It would free up the capital for 1-2 warriors. I wasn't aware you had one due to images.

Help is very limited as we can't see what cities are actually doing. Just like voting for that far off site. You do know this site does offer voting facilities using polls?

In terms of goals on expansion vs defending cities you will have to make a decision on this. ARchery does allow all cities to build archers. Only you can judge which nearby AI could attack.

Would be good for you to get other people's opinions here but so far this seems limited. I think there are plenty of food resources about. Just border pops required for some sites. That or warfare to grab them from AI.

 

[Long try]

You do know this site does offer voting facilities using polls?

Yes, but well, each topic only allows 1 poll, so for multiple ones like this I think we'll need to resort to outside facilities.

I think there are plenty of food resources about. Just border pops required for some sites. That or warfare to grab them from AI.

Well, your idea of border pop inspired me to devise another plan:

Spoiler :

Just as you predicted, Mao has grabbed the wet rice spot. Since we can't aggressively block him any more (and the poll resulted in favor of not settling Green spot), I suppose maybe it's time to rethink the approach. How about these new sites?

• Red spot will have pig, a plethora of grasslands and 3 hills to boost. It also doesn't conflict with Mao's culture but still threatens to get copper.
• Orange will have auto-corn when it's settled, shared pig in times of need and also 3 hills.
• Yellow has sheep, fish, silk and some green tiles to work. More importantly, it combining with Orange will block Mao & give us leisure time to set up a city with horse & hill sheep later.
• Again, the important question is what to research? I guess it depends on our priority now. If it's to REX ASAP, then is the right choice Pottery => Writing => ...?

 

[Gumbolt]

Your dot map is not good. You cannot settle cities without a food resource to work.

Why settle on the marble? Decent commerce/hammer tile.It's next to 5 dead tiles. Orange site would not have corn till border of capital pops.
The yellow spot is just as bad. One grassland but not much else till you get a border pop.15+ turns at this stage is not acceptable for a 3rd city.
If you want to settle a spot nearby you want the grassland hill with corn, pigs and marble. The hill helps defences against any silly archer DOW.

I have not voted in that poll. The corn copper site is realy nice. With archers you could now defend that site. You would need to trade IW to work the gems.

What is your long term plan here? Personally I think an axe/pult rush would be good here. You have enough gold and commerce to get this in reasonable time.

I think you will want pottery/writing for science. Cottaging here will be harder with no rivers. Then maths/construction. HBR if you want thanks. With Ai more likely to attack a more offensive start would work well. Catapults could deal with AI spamming archers in their capital.

Your style of play here is not getting too much response. Maybe go back and look at some of the earlier advice from others.

 

[Olafeson]

I think as for K-Mod it is a good idea to settle your cities which are the closest to the enemy A.I. on a hill. Even though it might be not the optimal spot, it will help a lot if you get attacked. Fortified archers or longbows on a hill city can stand their ground.

Orange spot / disagree : i would settle that spot 1 SE on the grassland hill. better defensive spot, can work the marble later. the marble is a pretty good tile. Or 1 E for fresh water. But health issues are not that big on emperor difficulty-

Red spot is questionable : secures land for later, but if carthage should attack you, it will be hard to defend. also adds nothing but maintenance costs at settle.

Yellow spot is a nice spot to hire scientists. Library, grow to size 4, work the 2 food tiles and hire as many specialists as possible.

The red spot is really a spot you do not need i think. Even a city with only forests would be better. Just chop units or workers/settlers from there. For example:
What about the spot 1N of the marble lake. grabs horses, forests and a sheep? Its hard to tell from the angle of your screenshot. The sheep is on the edge. This would be a great spot too.

Just my thoughts about it. In general i would not care for spots too much that need techs that are far out of reach to be good. Like calendar resources.
I did like your first dot map a lot more. orange, yellow and blue spot makes for a strong 5 city core of your empire.

 

[Olafeson]

Pretty sure you want to go for pottery and writing after you got archery. Just get archery to be safe for now. Then you need some cottages and a library in capital and at the fish / sheep city in the tundra.

 

[Gumbolt]

He already has archery.

How much likely are the ai to attack with K mod? How quickly could emperor ai attack? 1000bc? Sooner?

 

[Olafeson]

It is hard to judge for me, i did play only 3 games with K-Mod until now. In 1 game i got attacked early with axeman and chariots. In the other one, A.I. did fight among themselves a lot and 1 was pretty peaceful until i attacked someone. So honestly i have no clue. But for sure more likely to be agressive than in vanilla BTS. I tend to settle border cities on hills, and get some archers extra, even though you would not need them in BTS.

 

[Gumbolt]

I guess the danger is if you start a war the Ai it's more likely an Ai might decide to join in war if theirs and the AI power rating is higher.

I made a mistake of starting a map with 3000 land tiles. 10 Ai each with 15-22 cities. Game has not crashed yet but I figure the map has over 150 cities.Even with 4 vassals still 2-4 more to vassal.

A forum game using K mod could be a nice idea for S and T? You would need to make sure everyone used the same mod? I think there are quite a few versions now? In any case Long Try has gone silent for almost a week now.

 

[rah]

I've gotten archer rushed quite a few times using K-mod.

 

[Olafeson]

@Gumbolt

sounds good to me, i would be in. I have 2 versions of the K-Mod. A rather old one which i use out of convenience and because it is already installed. And i think the latest version. Newest version would make sense, though i heard that the implemented Bug (or Bull) is not in it anymore.

What do you have in mind. Something like a K-Mod workshop, similar to Lains isolation workshop a while ago?
Or a forum game like Fippy did where everyone post theirs savefiles at a set Turnset?

 

[Gumbolt]

I was more thinking forum game. Would have to have a standard version of k mod. Would be a nice twist to the usual Noble club series. One off could at least be interesting. I would like to see an experimental always war game. Maybe getting ahead of myself.