[GS] The state of the game, is it speeding through the eras?

[WillowBrook]

I'm not yet halfway through the tech tree in my current game (first GS, no mods), but it's going along too fast, as I expected. I played with 8 ages of pace for vanilla, and then modified that mod for R&F by lengthening the age limits a bit and increasing the era score requirements. I expect I'll feel the need to use that mod again after my current game.

 

[Metecury]

It‘s way too fast. Making it slower would lead to more turns without any decision making, which may be why Firaxis shies away. Not a good reason in my eyes.

Slower tech, faster unit production, improved warfare and you are good to go. You get to use units longer and eliminate the only point in favour of unit gaps meaning they can now be filled.

More mechanics such as civil wars, events, and really whatever you can think of to make the game deeper would also help and why not more eras?


There surely is space for a new era in between the renaissance ad industrial one.

 

[RagnorIronpants]

Yes, definitely, and it removes a lot of the fun. I really like 6 but my main problem with it has consistently been the pacing (it seems to be the tech speed specifically), which makes the game dull by around the Medieval period by not giving you any time and space to explore all the units, buildings, wonders, etc.

 

[leandrombraz]

I think Civ VI focus on city specialization, thinking ahead and knowing how to optimize. It reward min/max playstyle and micromanagement heavily and punish you if you just do stuff without giving much thought to it. If you choose a city with good production, build an encampment on it, maybe get some military CS, use the right policies, you will produce units fast. If you don't prepare and specialize, it will take an eternity and be obsolete by the time you're done. The same logic can be applied to everything. Production is only a problem if you let it be a problem or get really unlucky with the map. You also aren't supposed to build everything everywhere, so you can build everything if you specialize your cities.

I won't mind if they make things easier to produce but I have no problem with the current balance, it seems to be working as intended.

 

[acluewithout]

I play with mods to slow the game down, and then restrict how many Campuses I build. And yet I'm still going through the tech tree too fast.

What would help is (1) increasing tech costs or giving the player options to increase costs (you also need to adjust the cost of GP etc.), (2) Eurekas should be 25% and some of the specific Eurekas need to be reviewed- and some should be harder on higher difficulties, (3) rework the Campus a little so it's harder to get science, forcing people to use trade, City States, great people, Harbours etc to get science, (4) give negatives to advancing through the tech tree, so it's not such a non-brainier - e.g. Increased maintenance or happiness needs.

Science and Culture are way too easy to get. The game is then too fast, and you just don't get to enjoy most of the content.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

My preferred approach (other than going back to the drawing board and building a better balanced economic system from the ground up, which isn't going to happen) would be to increase the modifiers associated with researching ahead of era and behind era techs and civics.

I'd double the value of science/culture contributed to researching behind era techs/civics.

I'd half the value of science/culture contributed to research techs/civics that are one era ahead of the current world era, and cut it to 25% for techs/civics that are two or more eras ahead.

The benefits of this approach are expected to be:

• Damaged AI civs won't fall as far behind the rest of the world.
• After a certain point, adding one more campus/theatre square will offer dramatically lower returns. This would nerf pure specialization strategies (campus in every town) and infinite city spam strategies.

This system is also somewhat self-correcting, unlike straight "double tech cost" style solutions, to future tech/civic additions or changes to base science/culture yields, as well as to different player playstyles. If you generate insufficient science to get all current era techs before the world era moves on, you'll be able to catch up. If you generate too much, the game will slow you down. You'll still be better off to be ahead of the AI and not behind, but you won't get as far ahead, and if you're a new player you won't fall so far behind.

 

[bbbt]

I sort of think this is an issue primarily for folks on this board - i.e. the higher level you play at the faster tech goes (because other AIs have researched techs), and if you are building lots of campuses the faster it goes. If you are playing on deity and spamming campuses, it's going to be a very fast tech game. If you a warlord player mostly wonder building, I don't know that it's going that fast.

 

[Depravo]

My current game, people are still building Classical era wonders even though we're all at a late-Renaissance level of tech.

I believe hammer costs are about right. The issue is mainly with the tech and civics costs. Now you can get a turn plus of beakers just for burning an enemy mine exacerbates this.

 

[Ornen]

The pacing in the game is fine. I'm currently playing Mali on Immortal, on the forefront of science in my game, and I'm sometimes running out of clear options to build/buy in my game.

If you're worried about the little calendar number in the top corner of the screen, it probably means the calendar math needs to be adjusted, not the pacing of the entire game.

 

[darkace77450]

I wonder how many of you claiming tech progression is too fast roll with the ICC/conquer everything approach with a Campus in every city. I also wonder is it's possible for Firaxis to balance science and culture so that it's not too fast for min-maxers and not too slow for casual players.

 

[Elhoim]

My preferred approach (other than going back to the drawing board and building a better balanced economic system from the ground up, which isn't going to happen) would be to increase the modifiers associated with researching ahead of era and behind era techs and civics.

I'd double the value of science/culture contributed to researching behind era techs/civics.

I'd half the value of science/culture contributed to research techs/civics that are one era ahead of the current world era, and cut it to 25% for techs/civics that are two or more eras ahead.

The benefits of this approach are expected to be:

• Damaged AI civs won't fall as far behind the rest of the world.
• After a certain point, adding one more campus/theatre square will offer dramatically lower returns. This would nerf pure specialization strategies (campus in every town) and infinite city spam strategies.

This system is also somewhat self-correcting, unlike straight "double tech cost" style solutions, to future tech/civic additions or changes to base science/culture yields, as well as to different player playstyles. If you generate insufficient science to get all current era techs before the world era moves on, you'll be able to catch up. If you generate too much, the game will slow you down. You'll still be better off to be ahead of the AI and not behind, but you won't get as far ahead, and if you're a new player you won't fall so far behind.

Yeah, I tweaked the game so that techs from previous eras are half the cost, and from future eras double the cost. Also reduced the inspirations/eurekas to 20%, and did a small increase of tech costs the further down the tree they are.

Regarding the eureka system, for future games I would discard the "mini objectives" per tech, and while keeping the general tree I would assign 3-4 different "areas" for the techs (like exploration/infrastructure/military). Then I would grant XP for actions taken that correspond to these areas (like these mini-objectives), and give level ups that grant tech speed or even other side benefits as well. It would also be merged with the historical moments, and your advances in these areas are what would define golden ages.

 

[AriochIV]

I have only played one and a half games with GS, but the pace of era advancement seems unchanged from pre-GS. Which is: the eras blaze past, and everyone seems to be building spaceships in the early 1900's.

Civ V and VI both had this problem of some units not sticking around long enough to be used. I could play Civ V on the slower setting (but not the slowest), but Civ VI was just too boring to play on anything slower than Normal. Now that there's more to do, I may try again on a slower setting.

And just for reference, I usually play on King or Emperor and I'm not the chop/rex/exploit of the month obsessive min-maxer sort.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Yeah, I tweaked the game so that techs from previous eras are half the cost, and from future eras double the cost. Also reduced the inspirations/eurekas to 20%, and did a small increase of tech costs the further down the tree they are.

Regarding the eureka system, for future games I would discard the "mini objectives" per tech, and while keeping the general tree I would assign 3-4 different "areas" for the techs (like exploration/infrastructure/military). Then I would grant XP for actions taken that correspond to these areas (like these mini-objectives), and give level ups that grant tech speed or even other side benefits as well. It would also be merged with the historical moments, and your advances in these areas are what would define golden ages.

Those are good ideas. To add to them, I think the game would be more interesting if:
a) the first cv (or first couple of civs for large maps) who research a tech/civic gained a related bonus; and,
b) all civs who know a civ with a tech/civic get points towards that tech/civic each turn

For me, that would make progress through the tech/civic tree more interesting, as instead of having to research everything eventually anyway, instead you'd pick and choose the route you take based on what you have bonuses for (love your idea of tech areas tied to in game actions) and what you really want the bonuses for. Every tech/civic would then become it's own little mini wonder race.

I wonder how many of you claiming tech progression is too fast roll with the ICC/conquer everything approach with a Campus in every city.

Going out on a limb here, but I'd say there are a lot more Deity players who conquer nothing and chop nothing, trying to make the game more interesting and avoiding the easy routes to victory.

I also wonder is it's possible for Firaxis to balance science and culture so that it's not too fast for min-maxers and not too slow for casual players.

I believe it is. "Min-maxing" is only a thing with imbalanced rules. If players are offered choices with trade offs where neither is necessarily more powerful than the other, that's typically not only more fun, it's easier on the AI and new players. I think that's why a lot of people on this forum take the time to try and point areas where the choices are imbalanced (chopping, for example), since if one choice leads to a more powerful empire 95%+ of the time, it's suitable for a nerf. If an option is only really good for role-playing purposes, it's suitable for a buff, so that's it's more generally useful.

It's true that in a game as complex as Civ, you'd never be able to get things perfectly tuned. And even then, experienced players with a sense of when option A outperforms option B will still reach victory faster than more casual players. That, to my mind, is where the difficulty levels kick in. There's no reason why tech and civics costs, for example, couldn't be higher for players on higher difficulty levels. That would probably be a better approach than the current one, where the AI is given boosts instead, so that it races ahead of the world era along with the player, and everyone on the globe is researching modern techs in the renaissance era.​

 

[Equilin]

I sort of think this is an issue primarily for folks on this board - i.e. the higher level you play at the faster tech goes (because other AIs have researched techs), and if you are building lots of campuses the faster it goes. If you are playing on deity and spamming campuses, it's going to be a very fast tech game. If you a warlord player mostly wonder building, I don't know that it's going that fast.

I played on Prince one game, build 1 campus total and wonder-grabbing, and still speed through eras really quickly.

 

[DWilson]

Yup, I definitely go through tech much more quickly than feels appropriate, while production seems to rise too slowly to compensate. It's not notably worse in GS than before, but I think something to increase tech times would be good. Has to be balanced not to run out of GP too quickly, or to make era score too easy to accumulate.

 

[acluewithout]

The issue is both that science is too easy to get, and that there’s no downside to advancing (not even opportunity cost, really).

Letting the AI catch-up or drag the advancing player back is not a solution. You’ll just end up with everyone racing through the tree, rather than just the player.

Make science something you have to work for, like you do with culture (or did before Pingala buff). And make powering through the science tree have some downside, even if it’s just your people expecting a higher standard of living, so pumping science isn’t such a no brainer.

There’s really lots that could be done. Like make libraries give no science, but instead let you generate more science from trade. Or stop universities giving flat science - eg maybe science based on appeal, or only with certain policies slotted.

Or just nerf all the science districts and buildings, and force players to rely on great people, specialists and projects.

...actually, that might be really cool. Imagine that... no more science just from building a campus. Instead, you can’t get anywhere unless you have big cities that can support specialists, or you grab some awesome great person, or you dedicate that city to running projects. Or else, science only comes from having culture, meaning stronger governments, meaning better science policies etc.

 

[ZeroSuitSenpai]

Don't get Pingala and it will feel like pre-GS speed again

 

[Takfloyd]

Don't get Pingala and it will feel like pre-GS speed again

So, just as fast. The tech tree has always gone by twice as fast as it should. In fact, it was even worse at launch when Eurekas gave 50% and tech costs were even smaller.

 

[Stilgar08]

It's too fast and it's been from the start of CiVI. Some very neat proposals here to counteract that. Especially tying progress to World age making techs higher than the median more difficult to get sounds good to me.
Since FXS has Problems punishing players see it this way: It could be done like housing for growth.... 1 era ahead - 33%, 2eras 66%...

Why not enabling the player to give beakers to weaker allies to push their progress or enable Spies to undo the slog when you're ahead by a Mission...

 

[Kamino]

The speed isn't the only issue. The tech tree is not wide enough to make choices interesting. And eurekas add a lot of micromanagement. Same for the civic tree.