The truth about the fall of the Roman empire

[Truronian]

Do I remember reading somewhere that the Romans relied too much on North African food and agriculturally devastated much of the productive land?

 

[Karalysia]

They also had grain growing in Sicily, Egypt, and on occasion I am told imported from Scythica/Sarmatia.

 

[CurtSibling]

Some say the infusion of Christianity into the Roman empire made it eventually weak and soft.
Too timid to take on the raging pagan hordes that did not care to "turn the other cheek"...

Not sure about that myself, as religion can inspire violence. But the new faith no doubt did
cause divisions in Roman society that probably led to disunity when unity was needed...

 

[Ajidica]

Some say the infusion of Christianity into the Roman empire made it eventually weak and soft.
Too timid to take on the raging pagan hordes that did not care to "turn the other cheek"...

Yet the barbarians who were Arian, so still Christians, were just as violent as when they were pagan. The adoption of Christianity by Rome did not 'make it too timid' as evidenced by the fact the East remained and was strong enough reconquer North Africa, Italy, and parts of Spain.

Not sure about that myself, as religion can inspire violence. But the new faith no doubt did
cause divisions in Roman society that probably led to disunity when unity was needed...

One of the reasons Constantine pushed Christianity so heavily because it would serve as a unifying agent. One God in heaven, one Emperor on Earth. Again, if Christianity caused the collapse of Rome, why did the East do so well?

 

[gangleri2001]

Nice thread when we take in account that tomorrow is the birthday of the roman empire.

On its fall, all I can say is that having such a vast empire with only about 40 million people and an army of about 300.000 to protect such vast borders played a major role. This and the rampant inflation of the 3th century.

 

[CurtSibling]

Yet the barbarians who were Arian, so still Christians, were just as violent as when they were pagan. The adoption of Christianity by Rome did not 'make it too timid' as evidenced by the fact the East remained and was strong enough reconquer North Africa, Italy, and parts of Spain.

That is but one nation of people.
Were the peoples of the Russian steppes, or the Huns Christian too?
What about the Northern Britons or various Middle Eastern nations?

You speak of the Eastern Empire, which was a partition.
What of the West? This is what I was hinting at...

One of the reasons Constantine pushed Christianity so heavily because it would serve as a unifying agent. One God in heaven, one Emperor on Earth. Again, if Christianity caused the collapse of Rome, why did the East do so well?

Of course, he pushed religion for his own human ends. Obviously.

And - Your final question is not an real rebuff to my own musing.
The collapse of Rome did happen. The Eastern provinces carried
on, but you do not address the causes of the Western collapse...

.

 

[Karalysia]

I thought no one took Gibbons seriously anymore.

 

[Holycannoli]

Overextended themselves and underestimated the barbarian hordes, in a nutshell

 

[gangleri2001]

Of course, he pushed religion for his own human ends. Obviously.

And - Your final question is not an real rebuff to my own musing.
The collapse of Rome did happen. The Eastern provinces carried
on, but you do not address the causes of the Western collapse...

.

I'm sick of this myth that "we're going the roman way". We have had at least 500 hundred years of this BS and yet some people doesn't learn that is just BS.

 

[CurtSibling]

I'm sick of this myth that "we're going the roman way". We have had at least 500 hundred years of this BS and yet some people doesn't learn that is just BS.

You've been around for 500 years? What are you, Christopher Lambert?

And you sickness at the subject isn't going to stop debate on it, old boy.

 

[gangleri2001]

You've been around for 500 years? What are you, Christopher Lambert?

No, I'm just saying that that myth your preaching here is just an updated version of a 500 yo. myth.

And you sickness at the subject isn't going to stop debate on it, old boy.

Ok, let's discuss it and compare our current western societes with the late roman one:

Were there any religious crisis?
Late roman empire: YES
Us: NO

Was there any rampant inflation that caused an almost-complete collapse of commerce?
Late roman empire: YES
Us: NO

Were there any hostile nations willing to attack?
Late roman empire: YES
Us: NO

Was their prevalence in military technology in decline?
Late roman empire: YES (due to the economy, they ended up using almost-barbarian equipment)
Us: NO

Were there any underpopulation problems?
Late roman empire: YES
Us: NO

Were there any problems with food supply that in the long term afected the viability of the state?
Late roman empire: YES
Us: NO

Etc.

 

[Karalysia]

Was their prevalence in military technology in decline?
Late roman empire: YES (due to the economy, they ended up using almost-barbarian equipment)

whut?

 

[CurtSibling]

Ok, let's discuss it and compare our current western societes with the late roman one:

Etc.

I have my own views on the matter and they are not changing.

Etc.

 

[gangleri2001]

whut?

After the 3th Century Crisis the empire began to downsize its military budget. This caused that they began to use cheap adaptations of barbaric weapons. Late roman legions are known for looking almost barbaric.

 

[CurtSibling]

So if the Western world declines or collapses in your lifetime, can we refer to this thread and embarrass you, gangleri?

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

Damn those filthy Romans and their filthy power plants, factories and automobiles!!

Cute, but it was natural climate change that was responsible, not artificial, and this study is not exactly new. It just presents newer evidence that climate variability has changed history.

 

[Joecoolyo]

So if the Western world declines or collapses in your lifetime, can we refer to this thread and embarrass you, gangleri?

If it doesn't, can we do the same to you?

 

[CurtSibling]

If it doesn't, can we do the same to you?

Be my guest - Although, I never predicted the West was going to collapse anyway.

 

[ParkCungHee]

Considering how well we did in that thread defining "the west" I think you allready embarased yourself by talking about it as a serious term.

 

[Karalysia]

After the 3th Century Crisis the empire began to downsize its military budget. This caused that they began to use cheap adaptations of barbaric weapons. Late roman legions are known for looking almost barbaric.

What are "barbaric weapons"? There is little to no difference between Roman and what you call "barbarian technology" whatever that means. There is no such thing as military technology at this time. There was simply no technological advancement during this time period, if you look at Roman legions during the Early Republic and the late Empire sure there are some small invvoations like with the Marian reforms or the increased use of armored cavalry during the empire but what you call technology has fundamentally remained unchanged. Technology didn't become a factor in wars until much, much later. The usage of auxiliaries is another matter and has nothing to do with "technology"