The UNREAL Walkthrough

[ABigCivFan]

I will play this game out given my understanding of the game and post the result. I am a bit taken back at your attitude towards new players, everyone is new once. Besides, just because you showed that you won an Emperor game with an uncommonly strong starting location by stuffing all the wonders into your capital does not necessarily making you an instant "expert". I have not looked at your spoilers in detail, and I will play with my style based on what is given.

 

[r_rolo1]

Obsolete had exposed a somewhat underlooked ability of GP especially the hated GProphets, they can value more than some early tile improvements ( a settled GProphet worths more than 2 cottages in terms on gold and the same as a forest grassland in terms of hammers, without having to spend food to feed him ) . A settled GP early can worth a lot more than a lightbulbed one if you plan to finish the game in a not so early date, which excludes a lot of the most popular strats ( "do you want to conquer the world early? Preatorians is what you're looking for! Call now to ...." ).
Other thing that obsolete exposed is that sometimes is better to not build certain cities because of the maintenance costs ( if, of course, you can get a high productive city, or by having a lot of citizens working ( the cern of the HR related strats ) or by having settled GPs)).
Other thing that favours the obsolete's aproach is the foreign trade routes ( with 2 cities almost all ( if not all) of the trade routes will be foreign ) that can help when the settled GPs start to lose their shine.
But I have to agree that without a uber cav rush this strat would have far smaller chances of being sucessfull ( when the PP+Emancipation+US starts to kick cottages up )
In resume: this strat is viable? Yes. This strat is better than the more "classic" aproaches? Not sure, but maybe not ( IMHO ) This strat is easy to implement? Most certainly not, more by the force of habits than because of the strat itself ( it requires some well conducted diplo and a somewhat careful timing, but lightbulbing to Lib also needs a careful timing of research ).

@ obsolete

Thanks for exposing your way of playing. A lot diferent of my own, but everyone plays diferently this game ( thank God ! I hated those civ III recipes to win ... ). And don't be suprised by the sceptical reactions of some posters: I still remember how people reacted to the first proponent of the Philo bulb route( a real nice strat IMHO, especially because it unlocks you a useful civic, a nice wonder and a religion ). The normal reaction of people when faced with something new is this one and, as long as we are humans , this will happen...

 

[InFlux5]

(Disclaimer: haven't read all the replies yet.)

One question: do you ever go for cultural wins?

By way of commentary I'd say that this game, while impressive, was basically just a rehash of the previous but on a higher level. While that is great for demonstrating some aspects of the strategy, you've twice performed a wonder-spamming strategy.

If you really want to showcase the robustness and effectiveness of no-cottages/no-lightbulbing (NCNL?) you should do something other than Ramesses -> wonder spam IMO. There's also the fact, already mentioned, that your starting land was basically the same in both games.

These factors are great for a direct comparison between two almost-identical games. But, realizing these walkthroughs are a large time commitment, I would still love to see the "NCNL" strat with a different leader.

P.S. I just have to say, I have greatly enjoyed both of these threads. Thanks so much for taking the time, Obsolete. If nothing else these threads have taught me a lot about the game in general, made me look at it very differently, regardless of the particular strat.

 

[vicawoo]

No pyramids SE is viable, but you'll need more than 2 cities and priests. Your science will be less than 50.

 

[Quornix]

If anyone's interested, I fixed up a map for a challenge match. It is a somewhat modified Standard sized Fractal map, with seven civs set at Emperor. You will be playing as Elizabeth, who is Financial and Philosophical, and so can swing both ways as either CE or SE.

Unfortunately, while moving everyone around, I didn't realize that you would make contact with anyone you saw in the worldbuilder. Because some contact was made, I gave contact to all civs (put a warrior from each one on the same square, then deleted them). So I might as well announce that the opponents are Mansa, Gandhi, Qin, Catherine, Augustus, and Montezuma. Should be a good mix.

The map has been designed to give a good setup for cottage, lightbulb SE, and settled SE.

Some details of the map, which shouldn't be gamebreakers (if you're playing, you can look, but if you don't want to, you don't have to)

Spoiler :

Gandhi and Mansa are on their own moderate sized continents, to see which one runs away with the tech lead. Of course, since everyone has contact, this is biased towards Mansa, who would trade during war if he could. Everyone else is on the same continent. The reason I moved everyone around was because the two isolated civs were us and Monty. What fun is that?

Both Gandhi and Mansa have both stone and marble at a good second city spot, so early wonders will be a race, but not as bad as if they were in the enemy's fat cross. Both stone and marble are available nearby for the player, in good, but separate city locations.

If anyone decides to play this out, we can start a new thread, but I figured it would be silly to do so if there were no takers. Here's the 4000 BC save.

 

[LlamaCat]

#2 You do NOT need industrious. It just happens that Ramesses was industrious. I like Ramesses because he is so well rounded. You do NOT need to go on any wonder building mode. I just went with the situation at hand.

ummm, so it "just happens" that you picked Ramesses for both games? I mean come on, you can't make these kinds of statements without backing it up. Both of your games you picked a leader who gets a 50% wonder production bonus. I'm just not sure why you keep stating this, without a game showing this example. You did prove that many other things are possible, but this statement has no backing yet from your games. Not that I don't necessarily believe it...

Still these were very interesting games and valuable I think they show you can place less emphasis on war and still do well.

 

[Dirk1302]

If anyone's interested, I fixed up a map for a challenge match. It is a somewhat modified Standard sized Fractal map, with seven civs set at Emperor. You will be playing as Elizabeth, who is Financial and Philosophical, and so can swing both ways as either CE or SE.

Unfortunately, while moving everyone around, I didn't realize that you would make contact with anyone you saw in the worldbuilder. Because some contact was made, I gave contact to all civs (put a warrior from each one on the same square, then deleted them). So I might as well announce that the opponents are Mansa, Gandhi, Qin, Catherine, Augustus, and Montezuma. Should be a good mix.

The map has been designed to give a good setup for cottage, lightbulb SE, and settled SE.

Some details of the map, which shouldn't be gamebreakers (if you're playing, you can look, but if you don't want to, you don't have to)

Spoiler :

Gandhi and Mansa are on their own moderate sized continents, to see which one runs away with the tech lead. Of course, since everyone has contact, this is biased towards Mansa, who would trade during war if he could. Everyone else is on the same continent. The reason I moved everyone around was because the two isolated civs were us and Monty. What fun is that?

Both Gandhi and Mansa have both stone and marble at a good second city spot, so early wonders will be a race, but not as bad as if they were in the enemy's fat cross. Both stone and marble are available nearby for the player, in good, but separate city locations.

If anyone decides to play this out, we can start a new thread, but I figured it would be silly to do so if there were no takers. Here's the 4000 BC save.

I'm certainly interested to play such a game, i'm tied up with 2 other games at the moment and i can't play every day so progress will not be superfast.

@BigCivFan, i'm certainly interested to see how you handle this map.

 

[Breunor]

Obsolete,

I really enjoyed this article. One of the reasons I do like Civ so much is that there are a lot of ways to play and win, and you may be right that as 'favorite' strategies become adopted that others should be tested.

I do think the fact that Rameses is industrious matters here, it is a good way to play different strategies to maiximize the value of the leader's characteristics.

Moreover, it doesn't even matter if the strategy is 'better' than other ones. What matters is to keep the strategy like this in my mind if I get the right circumstances. Even more important is making us question some basic concepts, like the value of settled vs. 'lightbulbed' leaders.

Great Stuff,

Breunor

 

[UncleJJ]

I will play this game out given my understanding of the game and post the result. I am a bit taken back at your attitude towards new players, everyone is new once. Besides, just because you showed that you won an Emperor game with an uncommonly strong starting location by stuffing all the wonders into your capital does not necessarily making you an instant "expert". I have not looked at your spoilers in detail, and I will play with my style based on what is given.

This strikes me as unfair criticism and smacks of political correctness, which is passe. He is merely warning new players that this approach requires experience of how to interpret the military, technological and diplomatic situation. It is not for everyone or for every situation on higher levels.

I see this as an honest attempt to show that you can win at emperor level without lightbulbing key technologies or spamming cottages. He took those two themes to extreme lengths to prove his point ... that you can win without lightbulbing or building cottages. He acknowledges both can be useful and only avoided their use to establish his point. His starting position might have been "strong" but so what? He still won on Emperor using this technique and that's all he's claiming.

He specifically disclaims that he is an "expert" so you are out of order saying that anything he's said should be interpreted that way. Kindly retract that malicious comment. You seem to have over reacted and to be somewhat oversensitive. Let other people express themselves in their own way.

 

[ABigCivFan]

This strikes me as unfair criticism and smacks of political correctness, which is passe. He is merely warning new players that this approach requires experience of how to interpret the military, technological and diplomatic situation. It is not for everyone or for every situation on higher levels.

First of all, I consider Emperor as intermediate level. Given this uncommon map, you can beat the weak AIs any way you want including wonder spam AND not bulb not cottage. Wonders are extremely powerful, so being Industrious, have a super starting location+stone means a super strong capital that is OP. I would never recommend this to new players as you need to regenerate map like 100 times in order to get a start like this and it is highly un-reliable. You can play this map and finish it in a much better time and much more efficient fashion.

What do you mean I am being "over-sensitive"? About what? I just sensed his contempt for new players by repeatly using the word "noob". If you are a real "expert", at least have some class and be humble and honest about helping new players.

Also, I dont see the point of the title "The Unreal/Impossible Walkthrough". What is so "Unreal" or "Impossible" when the actualy map is a piece of cake to beat? There are a lot better walk through out there that new players can learn a lot more about the true mechanics of the game, and in much more depth.

 

[Quornix]

Figured I'd post a picture of the starting location, see if I got any bites.

This is an very generous map (and I didn't have to change much of it). Anyone who plays on Emperor should have little trouble with it. I'd play it myself, but I struggle on Monarch. The point is to see how the various techniques compare.

 

[Welnic]

The only thing that I see as being bad about this save is having Gandhi and MM on islands where they don't have to worry about defense, they can spread out to fill the island and they can still tech trade sounds like a double runaway AI setup to me.

 

[AZSportsFan]

First of all, I consider Emperor as intermediate level. Given this uncommon map, you can beat the weak AIs any way you want including wonder spam AND not bulb not cottage....

If you are a real "expert", at least have some class and be humble and honest about helping new players....

Also, I dont see the point of the title "The Unreal/Impossible Walkthrough". What is so "Unreal" or "Impossible" when the actualy map is a piece of cake to beat? There are a lot better walk through out there that new players can learn a lot more about the true mechanics of the game, and in much more depth.

Ok, we get the idea now that YOU are the expert we all aim to be... Aren't you doing here just what you were claiming obsolete was doing? Big deal, it's a game. [By that same token, I shouldn't have said anything and I apologize.]

But I rather enjoy reading walkthroughs no matter the level/strategy/experience/map/etc. Can we perhaps be a little more gracious to those who take the time to do so? No need to specify how they are wrong, shortsighted, noobs, etc. JMHO. If we don't want to play that way, then we won't. Goes without saying, really. I don't remember the disclaimer saying that if we don't play this way then we won't be "leet".

So thanks for posting these walkthroughs, obsolete. Just another thing to keep in mind when the situation warrants.

 

[Dirk1302]

@Welnic, means the game won't be a walkover . Starting position looks nice, the initial gold makes getting the early techs that much easier.

 

[Quornix]

The only thing that I see as being bad about this save is having Gandhi and MM on islands where they don't have to worry about defense, they can spread out to fill the island and they can still tech trade sounds like a double runaway AI setup to me.

If anyone knows how to undo that, I'd be happy to get rid of the contacts. But I spent half an hour getting things laid out just right (after a few regenerations to get the shape I wanted).

I can do it again, and I can do it on Immortal, if ABigCivFan thinks that would be more a challenge (Emperor is intermediate?). But, as Dirk said, having those two able to run away should up the difficulty.

And Obsolete? Sorry, but it's on Epic. I don't see a lot of Quick players, and Epic is a speed that most people can enjoy, regardless of preference.

 

[futurehermit]

First of all, I consider Emperor as intermediate level

Umm...you DO realize that the majority of the civ4 community plays on warlord, noble, or prince don't you???

 

[Welnic]

I just think that this save tilts the field against the mode of play that Obsolete is demonstrating. I do think that the deck has been stacked some in these two demo games, but I think this goes the other way. I think that the leader choice and setup other than everyone being in contact would work well.

I have really enjoyed these two demo threads, by the way.

 

[Quornix]

Not so much, I don't think. The capital is rich in food, production, and commerce. It's coastal, but only has two water tiles (and one is fish). No strategic resources are in the city, but they're all available somewhere nearby. It's a non-industrious civ, but close marble and stone, along with the philosophical trait should make wonderbuilding a legitimate path, and settling GP is boosted by having more of them.

As for the contact, it wouldn't be much different than if the continents that Mansa and Ghandi were on could be reached by trireme, since everyone would probably have met them by the time Alphabet came around. It's not like those two would leave vast tracts of land open for other AIs to settle on, and who goes for a sea invasion when there are still opponents on your continent? Other than the AI?

If anything, this makes it easier, as the AIs declare war on people they can't reach. Plus, you have Mansa available for trading! And Obsolete certainly trades as much as anyone. In fact, he tends to go even deeper than most people to make that possible.

 

[ABigCivFan]

Umm...you DO realize that the majority of the civ4 community plays on warlord, noble, or prince don't you???

The reason is the difference between AI bonus on Emperor Vs. Immortal is HUGE. Check out the handicap in the XML file and you should know.

Stepping from say Noble to Prince is just not the same as from Emperor to Immortal.

If you think Emperor is "expert" level, what would you call Immortal or Deity?

I would never call myself "expert" nor I would call anyone "noob". There are always people who can do better than myself. That is my point and my advice to Obsolete.

 

[Dirk1302]

Just looked at the save, with the knowledge that stone and marble are nearby i think the playing field is fairly even. Financial helps with cottaging but stone and marble help for Obsolete's strat. Philosophical helps with settling but also with lightbulbing so it's neutral. That we have contact with all the others already is not a problem imo.