What difficulty level do you consider yourself to be on?
The UNREAL Walkthrough
- Thread starter obsolete
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What difficulty level do you consider yourself to be on?
Dirk1302
Deity
In the end i agree with aelf, frob2900 , Bigcivfan and others that are a bit sceptical about this strat, like i said earlier i can see that great prophets are great for settling, i still think that i can do better things depending on the situation with all the other gp's.
Obsolete is obviously a good player, you can read in his last post here how much he's aware of his surroundings, timelines and the AIs around him. But with the starting positions he got i could have made his strat but also a lightbulb or cottage strat made working.
Anyhow whomever it is that posts a new strat, more evidence is always needed i feel before it can be truly established in what circumstances it might be applicable or even superior.
Obsolete is obviously a good player, you can read in his last post here how much he's aware of his surroundings, timelines and the AIs around him. But with the starting positions he got i could have made his strat but also a lightbulb or cottage strat made working.
Anyhow whomever it is that posts a new strat, more evidence is always needed i feel before it can be truly established in what circumstances it might be applicable or even superior.
Izipo
Hardcore casual gamer
Try a game where you gift your great people to the AI to prove how sweet a strategy it is
When the inevitable "From now on I'm convinced that gifting my Great Generals to Shaka and Great Scientists to Mansa is the way to go" posts appear, you'll be my biggest hero
It has been done in a SG. Funny game, to say the least (players won by domination IIRC).
I'll go and look for it.
Back to the subject.
Basically this strat is just a Super Specialist Economy (SSE). Although I'm surprised by some of the discussions (and the heat level implied by some comments), it's quite natural that people would argue about that. Exactly like the CE vs SE threads.
So now with have CE vs SE vs SSE.
Fine, what's the big deal ?
This strategy works quite well on emperor, unfortunately it's a crap shoot on immortal because of the increased AI handicaps speeding both their research and production. Pyramids + great library are pretty much essential to making this work and the AI can grab them very early sometimes.
Well I tried this game using Obsolete's restrictions. I just found the start too overwhelming. Stone + ind is not a typical start for this strat (not to mention everything else you could want--ivory, gems, copper in my first 2 cities).
I rexed 6 cities, built wonders. I even spaced and forgot to hook up my marble and lost the Glib by one turn. No matter--annilated Toku with cats/jumbos and then pulled away. 17 cities and SL. Quit in 1650 but game was clearly won by SR.
Settling GP is no handicap, especially at emp. No cottages for me is tho.
I'd like to see this challenge again, only with no indu and no stone. My guess is that it's a different ballgame.
I rexed 6 cities, built wonders. I even spaced and forgot to hook up my marble and lost the Glib by one turn. No matter--annilated Toku with cats/jumbos and then pulled away. 17 cities and SL. Quit in 1650 but game was clearly won by SR.
Settling GP is no handicap, especially at emp. No cottages for me is tho.
I'd like to see this challenge again, only with no indu and no stone. My guess is that it's a different ballgame.
Tried this on immortal last night, Ramses standard normal continents temperate medium. The start location is pretty ridiculous -- double Gold, and a good Stone site for the second city -- and it still felt tense and uncomfortable for a while. I think the Great Wall should be skipped on immortal; barbs aren't that much of a problem, it's only one gpp, and it just pushes the Oracle and Pyramids back too much. I got them both this games, but up against another Industrial civ I might not have.
I didn't have room for a third city. Fortunately one of Alex's flipped. I later took most of his empire with cats and axes. The 860 AD save is just before Liberalism -- but there's no hurry, with Papere still a monopoly tech. And with five of us on this continent, it's doubtful that the overseas civs will be advanced enough to worry about. So it should be easy to sling Chemistry from here.
Other cities are getting cottages, as either commerce or hybrid cities. Yet the capital is still bringing in the bulk of the research. I think I agree with uberfish -- both the Pyramids and the GL are needed at this level.
peace,
lilnev
p.s. It doesn't show in the image -- I think there's one GS, two GPs, and three GEs settled, plus the two GL scientists.
I didn't have room for a third city. Fortunately one of Alex's flipped. I later took most of his empire with cats and axes. The 860 AD save is just before Liberalism -- but there's no hurry, with Papere still a monopoly tech. And with five of us on this continent, it's doubtful that the overseas civs will be advanced enough to worry about. So it should be easy to sling Chemistry from here.
Other cities are getting cottages, as either commerce or hybrid cities. Yet the capital is still bringing in the bulk of the research. I think I agree with uberfish -- both the Pyramids and the GL are needed at this level.
peace,
lilnev
p.s. It doesn't show in the image -- I think there's one GS, two GPs, and three GEs settled, plus the two GL scientists.
Another immortal try last night, not so good. Capital was unspectacular but solid -- food and hills, and Copper -- but no Stone or Marble or any source of commerce to be found. Mehmed cramped my space quite early on. I skipped GW, got Stonehenge, and a solid second production city. But without any sources of commerce, research seriously dragged. Oracle was BIDLed in 1080 BC, founding Taoism(!), before I even had Priesthood, for example.
And Mehmed declared on me in 1360 BC. Maybe I should have ignored it and just defended with a few axes. But instead I went on an axe-whipping spree, and marched to his nearest city with 8 of 'em ... only to find it defended by 11 archers. Damn you, immortal AI! Signed a ceasefire, gave him a few turns to disperse, and went back in. He had indeed redistributed his forces, and I took the city. But in the meantime, my economy had crashed, and I hadn't gotten the Pyramids. I marched on to his capital, hoping to salvage the game by stealing a fantastic city, but it was defended by 6 archers on a hill. I tried it anyway (with 11 axes), but the dice didn't break my way, and I abandoned the game around 200 BC, still not knowing Alphabet.
I'm going to try this a few more times, to see what conditions it does/doesn't work under, and whether I think it's actually superior to more conventional strategies. Right now I'm seriously concerned about keeping research going. Both Pottery and Writing are greatly delayed by the push through Wonder techs (Myst-Mining-Masonry-Poly-Priest, plus AH and/or BW depending on circumstances). Where does the research come from? If you can get through the first stage, snagging Pyramids and GL and getting a couple of settled GPs, then the second stage looks OK. But that first stage can be tough....
peace,
lilnev
And Mehmed declared on me in 1360 BC. Maybe I should have ignored it and just defended with a few axes. But instead I went on an axe-whipping spree, and marched to his nearest city with 8 of 'em ... only to find it defended by 11 archers. Damn you, immortal AI! Signed a ceasefire, gave him a few turns to disperse, and went back in. He had indeed redistributed his forces, and I took the city. But in the meantime, my economy had crashed, and I hadn't gotten the Pyramids. I marched on to his capital, hoping to salvage the game by stealing a fantastic city, but it was defended by 6 archers on a hill. I tried it anyway (with 11 axes), but the dice didn't break my way, and I abandoned the game around 200 BC, still not knowing Alphabet.
I'm going to try this a few more times, to see what conditions it does/doesn't work under, and whether I think it's actually superior to more conventional strategies. Right now I'm seriously concerned about keeping research going. Both Pottery and Writing are greatly delayed by the push through Wonder techs (Myst-Mining-Masonry-Poly-Priest, plus AH and/or BW depending on circumstances). Where does the research come from? If you can get through the first stage, snagging Pyramids and GL and getting a couple of settled GPs, then the second stage looks OK. But that first stage can be tough....
peace,
lilnev
madscientist
RPC Supergenius
I tried OBSOLETEs saved game last night, playing as I normally would. Remeber I am a Prince level player for huge maps/marathon speed. Tjis game is standard speed, emporer level (never tried this before).
1) I had trouble adjusting to the speed change, I am used to much slower teching/building times.
2) Got the capital going fast, second city captured the stone, gems, eventual second copper site. Mined farmed the capital (popped gems from one of the mines).
3) Got the GW, stonehenge, pyramids built in that order.
4) Met Cyrus and Tokugawa.
5) Got third city and hroses.
1) I had trouble adjusting to the speed change, I am used to much slower teching/building times.
2) Got the capital going fast, second city captured the stone, gems, eventual second copper site. Mined farmed the capital (popped gems from one of the mines).
3) Got the GW, stonehenge, pyramids built in that order.
4) Met Cyrus and Tokugawa.
5) Got third city and hroses.
madscientist
RPC Supergenius
I tried OBSOLETEs saved game last night, playing as I normally would. Remeber I am a Prince level player for huge maps/marathon speed. Tjis game is standard speed, emporer level (never tried this before).
1) I had trouble adjusting to the speed change, I am used to much slower teching/building times.
2) Got the capital going fast, second city captured the stone, gems, eventual second copper site. Mined farmed the capital (popped gems from one of the mines).
3) Got the GW, stonehenge, pyramids built in that order.
4) Met Cyrus and Tokugawa.
5) Got third city and hroses.
I stopped here because I made alot of mistakes due to the unfamiliar speed, I could have played it better (I did not explore enough and got only 1 hut, very erratic building teching because of the fast times). That said I think I got a very strong start, and could have axe rushed tokugawa at this point. Now I am nowhere as good a player as OBSOLETE or ABIGCIVFAN nor have I ever attempted emporer level, however, I was able to get a very good start and could have played decently. This tells me the starting land was exceptional and most good players (again, no me!) could use any strategy to win.
Sorry for the double post
1) I had trouble adjusting to the speed change, I am used to much slower teching/building times.
2) Got the capital going fast, second city captured the stone, gems, eventual second copper site. Mined farmed the capital (popped gems from one of the mines).
3) Got the GW, stonehenge, pyramids built in that order.
4) Met Cyrus and Tokugawa.
5) Got third city and hroses.
I stopped here because I made alot of mistakes due to the unfamiliar speed, I could have played it better (I did not explore enough and got only 1 hut, very erratic building teching because of the fast times). That said I think I got a very strong start, and could have axe rushed tokugawa at this point. Now I am nowhere as good a player as OBSOLETE or ABIGCIVFAN nor have I ever attempted emporer level, however, I was able to get a very good start and could have played decently. This tells me the starting land was exceptional and most good players (again, no me!) could use any strategy to win.
Sorry for the double post
@ madscientist
So you can welcome me in the club now... ...I also tried Obsolete´s save a little... ...and I couldn´t agree more with you...
...
The start is brutal... ...stone/marble neerby, two early happy resources TWO copper, horses, iron and tons different calendar resources nearby...
have build two workers and second city (grabbing stone) first and still managed to get ALL early wonders in capital, got marble with third city then, stomped a little on Toku because he had stolen MY horses and iron (which both were also very close)... ...I like stomping on Toku btw...
still had lots of land behind capital free to settle because it was blocked by my cultural territory around 1. AD...
...
Well, this game could basically be won with whatever strat you use with THIS START by most players...
So you can welcome me in the club now... ...I also tried Obsolete´s save a little... ...and I couldn´t agree more with you...
...
The start is brutal... ...stone/marble neerby, two early happy resources TWO copper, horses, iron and tons different calendar resources nearby...
have build two workers and second city (grabbing stone) first and still managed to get ALL early wonders in capital, got marble with third city then, stomped a little on Toku because he had stolen MY horses and iron (which both were also very close
)... ...I like stomping on Toku btw...still had lots of land behind capital free to settle because it was blocked by my cultural territory around 1. AD...
...
Well, this game could basically be won with whatever strat you use with THIS START by most players...
So why does almost everyone keep on insisting that this game is proof of how good wonder spamming/specialist settling is (even though a while back everyone was panning and tut-tutting that strategy
)@ frob2900:
Wonder spamming can be a big help with the right circumstanes (ind. leader, stone/marble near...). It can alone even win a game on emperor here and there with a great start and the right leader, as Obsolite has proven.
Still, it´s not the REAL strat. It just helps generating GP´s. Play egypt, found 2 religions, have a footstrong city run 4 priests (2 from temples and 2 from monument) and settle them in your capital and you have the same result (I tried that before...) Well, basically when playing egypt, alwas go for priests, that all.
...
What Obsolite mainly points out (at least to me), is that GP´s are best to be settled (which I know). The other Great Persons I would still use the conventional way and a game without cottages and lightbulbing isn´t as strong then a game with cottages and lightbulbing and nothing can change that, because with the right start, you just build lots of wonders additionally...
Wonder spamming can be a big help with the right circumstanes (ind. leader, stone/marble near...). It can alone even win a game on emperor here and there with a great start and the right leader, as Obsolite has proven.
Still, it´s not the REAL strat. It just helps generating GP´s. Play egypt, found 2 religions, have a footstrong city run 4 priests (2 from temples and 2 from monument) and settle them in your capital and you have the same result (I tried that before...) Well, basically when playing egypt, alwas go for priests, that all.
...
What Obsolite mainly points out (at least to me), is that GP´s are best to be settled (which I know). The other Great Persons I would still use the conventional way and a game without cottages and lightbulbing isn´t as strong then a game with cottages and lightbulbing and nothing can change that, because with the right start, you just build lots of wonders additionally...
Oh sure, I won't debate that. It was the generalization to other situations (non-industrial.. no stone/marble.. low hammers etc.) that I found unrealistic.
Yeah, that's a good approach.
...
Yeah, I fully agree. I though that Prophet settling was pretty obvious even before this thread. It's just that obsolete thinks bulbing by any kind of great person is counterproductive and seemed to convince a lot of (especially newer) players that bulbing was bad.. This probably leads to a lot of people having to learn the hard way. I just though that was kind of unfortunate.
Another day, another game -- immortal Ramses standard normal continents temperate medium. A good-but-not-insane start, food and hills and Ivory. Decent second city claiming Stone, though limited long-term potential and further away than I'd have liked. Got Stonehenge, beaten to the Pyramids in 1320 BC(!). Not much chance if they're going to go that early. Oracle for Monarchy, Temple of Artemis. Again research felt rather slow -- I even skipped BW (eventually picked it up in trade). I got Alphabet but couldn't trade for Math, so no chance at the Hanging Gardens. But I got the GL, Anchor Wat, University of Sankore.
Neighbors were GW and Saladin, peaceful. And the geography left a lot of unsettled space for me, eventually six cities. Importantly, the third city had floodplains and double Gold, and with some spammed cottages my research began to recover (plus cities four and five shared five Dye between them). I eventually won Liberalism. It's now ~1200 AD, and I think I can win if I go on the offensive against Saladin. I'm not convinced that Wonder-spamming contributed to the success, though -- it feels like I'm winning despite the strategy, thanks to having peaceful neighbors and enough land. Essentially, I had to build an empire without any output from my capital, which was too busy pursuing Wonders. Now that I've reached the midgame it's a significant asset I can call on, but it wasn't easy getting here.
peace,
lilnev
Neighbors were GW and Saladin, peaceful. And the geography left a lot of unsettled space for me, eventually six cities. Importantly, the third city had floodplains and double Gold, and with some spammed cottages my research began to recover (plus cities four and five shared five Dye between them). I eventually won Liberalism. It's now ~1200 AD, and I think I can win if I go on the offensive against Saladin. I'm not convinced that Wonder-spamming contributed to the success, though -- it feels like I'm winning despite the strategy, thanks to having peaceful neighbors and enough land. Essentially, I had to build an empire without any output from my capital, which was too busy pursuing Wonders. Now that I've reached the midgame it's a significant asset I can call on, but it wasn't easy getting here.
peace,
lilnev
So why does almost everyone keep on insisting that this game is proof of how good wonder spamming/specialist settling is (even though a while back everyone was panning and tut-tutting that strategy
Frob,
I read this thread differently. My impression of the general view of people on these boards originally was that cottege spamming was the key to winning. Then a lot of people started talking about specialist economies, especially for philosphical leaders.
We also viewed that lightbulbing techs early was generally best. There was also a view that wonder addiction was fatal on levels at or above, say, price.
To me, this thread shows that other strategies are viable and may even be better under the right circumstances. A really good game doesn't have a 'best' strategy for all fo the different situations, and I think showing the power of wonder spamming and settling great people for an industrious leader is interesting and shows how rich the choices in the game are.
I doubt anyone is saying that Obsolete's strategy is 'best' in all cases.
Breunor
Hmm. It's just that people have missed the essential industrious/plains hill capital/floodplain circumstances here, and I still have a feeling this could be played much better by leaving out a number of those wonders and concentrating on getting cities to cottage up.
Ok, well, reading the thread that way, sure it was interesting to see the strategy in action (although TBH prophet settling is rather obvious to me when I don't have a GA or shrine to spend them on) and I certainly don't regret spending time reading it. Still my point is and always was that some strategies are better than others in that they work in more circumstances. This strategy doesn't work very often.
Wrong thread.
If you want to know about vassals, try looking through the Strategy Articles section. Here's a good article to start you out: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=5605156
If you can't find the info you need there, post a thread in the main forum and people will be happy to help out
pigswill
fly (one day)
Maybe one could draw the (fairly obvious) conclusion that there is no universal strategy that will win every game with every leader and every map. Obselete's approach is interesting because it is unconventional and should help players not to become too doctrinaire about CE/SE or lightbulbing/settling or anything else.
