The way barbarians spawn in the latest versions is really frustrating and unfun
- Thread starter osmuni
- Start date
Voremonger
Warlord
Just use a bucket. So for example, if you scale the spawn rate with the number of players you could add one point to the bucket per turn and per player that was originally in the game. While the bucket contains at least 16 points on the barbarian turn, 16 points are subtracted from the bucket and a camp is spawned for each subtraction. Raging/chill barbarians could then just be modifiers regarding how many points the bucket needs to spawn a camp. For 12 players the spawn schedule would then be something like
no spawn -> spawn -> spawn -> spawn with a period of 4 turns.
Why?
Rekk
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2017
- Messages
- 2,587
What?
Rekk
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2017
- Messages
- 2,587
Something like X camps per Y turns can scale with map size. I think the bucket suggested above would work better, especially if it was based on landmass instead of number of players.
smorgasborgas
Chieftain
- Joined
- Oct 7, 2020
- Messages
- 67
First of all, I want to say amazing work on this latest version! It is my favorite so far and thank you to all involved (this is more or less the only game i've played for like 10 years). I also love the new extreme barbarians. In the past I looked for mods that would make barbarians more threatening but even Barbarians Evolved and Barbarian Immersion didn't boost them much. But I think with a few tweaks a few aspects can be improved. For reference, I play Marathon speed, Huge map, 14 civs, Immortal, Raging Barbs, Unique City States, More Promotions.
Wishes with respect to barbarians and game pacing:
I really like the idea that barbarians are an existential threat to the player. They shouldn't be able to wipe out a player, but they should make it extremely difficult to accomplish anything. Specifically, the settling of your second city should be a herculean task that requires all the concerted focus of citizens and military. I think for gameplay (and realism too?) that you should be more or less cowering behind your walls focusing on defense until you build a significant military with an upgrade or two. Once you establish a foothold/perimeter of 3 adjacent cities, then it should become easier to defend yourself and field an army large enough to both defend against barbarians and begin looking for conquest opportunities. But even at this point, I think escorting a civilian across a continent should be suspenseful. Not all successful diasporas required a massive military, but barbarians have to represent ALL the challenges of a 3 year walk through untouched wilderness, like disease, animals, etc. that aren't currently represented in the game.
Don't wants:
*I don't want barbarians to be a chore to deal with... the currently CONSTANT spawning is a bit too much.
*I don't want barbarians to be such an 'opportunity' for players... a barbarian encampment should be somewhat concerning, not seen as "Hooray! 100 free culture!". And even for aztecs and askia, barbarians shouldn't just be an all you can eat buffet. They should still pose a real threat.
*I don't want AI to be unable to deal with them... the barbarians should not be able to wipe out players or disproportionately hinder one AI play style (peaceful, warmonger, etc) much more than another even at raging levels
Also:
I think there is too much of a jump in power from upgrading units at the moment. Wars are long and slow until one civ researches a military tech and upgrades units and wins effortlessly. Such a big focus on upgrading in turn puts a big focus on science which is already of paramount importance in the game. I think if the AI can handle it, much more importance should be placed on flanking. It shouldn't require a lot of upgrades for flanking to be a big advantage. Even if all units/soldiers involved were completely untrained a flank would make a huge difference and would probably be the determining factor in a fight. Boosted flanking would add more tactics into combat and need for skirmishers. But MOST important, an army that's just one upgrade above won't be so invincible.
Easiest way I can think to do this:
Decrease spawn rate to previous levels, but Raging Barbarians upgrades barb units to the next tech level up than they would normally be. Warrior->Spearman, Archer->Comp. etc. This way barbs could be less frequent and more potent.
Barbs don't wander more than 4 tiles from their spawning encampment until the second era.
Barbs can't enter Civ borders or attack cities until second era.
Barbs can't build ships before civs (come on, civs have a libraries and scientists and stuff, how are barbs able to beat us to ship building?)
All land and sea units flanking bonus greatly increased right off the bat without any upgrades (then the upgrades should be toned down proportionally)
Wishes with respect to barbarians and game pacing:
I really like the idea that barbarians are an existential threat to the player. They shouldn't be able to wipe out a player, but they should make it extremely difficult to accomplish anything. Specifically, the settling of your second city should be a herculean task that requires all the concerted focus of citizens and military. I think for gameplay (and realism too?) that you should be more or less cowering behind your walls focusing on defense until you build a significant military with an upgrade or two. Once you establish a foothold/perimeter of 3 adjacent cities, then it should become easier to defend yourself and field an army large enough to both defend against barbarians and begin looking for conquest opportunities. But even at this point, I think escorting a civilian across a continent should be suspenseful. Not all successful diasporas required a massive military, but barbarians have to represent ALL the challenges of a 3 year walk through untouched wilderness, like disease, animals, etc. that aren't currently represented in the game.
Don't wants:
*I don't want barbarians to be a chore to deal with... the currently CONSTANT spawning is a bit too much.
*I don't want barbarians to be such an 'opportunity' for players... a barbarian encampment should be somewhat concerning, not seen as "Hooray! 100 free culture!". And even for aztecs and askia, barbarians shouldn't just be an all you can eat buffet. They should still pose a real threat.
*I don't want AI to be unable to deal with them... the barbarians should not be able to wipe out players or disproportionately hinder one AI play style (peaceful, warmonger, etc) much more than another even at raging levels
Also:
I think there is too much of a jump in power from upgrading units at the moment. Wars are long and slow until one civ researches a military tech and upgrades units and wins effortlessly. Such a big focus on upgrading in turn puts a big focus on science which is already of paramount importance in the game. I think if the AI can handle it, much more importance should be placed on flanking. It shouldn't require a lot of upgrades for flanking to be a big advantage. Even if all units/soldiers involved were completely untrained a flank would make a huge difference and would probably be the determining factor in a fight. Boosted flanking would add more tactics into combat and need for skirmishers. But MOST important, an army that's just one upgrade above won't be so invincible.
Easiest way I can think to do this:
Decrease spawn rate to previous levels, but Raging Barbarians upgrades barb units to the next tech level up than they would normally be. Warrior->Spearman, Archer->Comp. etc. This way barbs could be less frequent and more potent.
Barbs don't wander more than 4 tiles from their spawning encampment until the second era.
Barbs can't enter Civ borders or attack cities until second era.
Barbs can't build ships before civs (come on, civs have a libraries and scientists and stuff, how are barbs able to beat us to ship building?)
All land and sea units flanking bonus greatly increased right off the bat without any upgrades (then the upgrades should be toned down proportionally)
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Barbs are fine, although decreasing them slighty if 1 is the current spawn rate 0.75/0.8 would be better less of a chore if any changes would be needed. Having them melee cities and take them over rather than 100 damage if they do take them would be grand. some AI can deal with them no problem. Other AI have many cities on 0 health for turns on end until they decide to go more militaristic.
More realist unit type spawn like the post above Ships could be an era behind so a galley could only spawn once civs have caravels. caravels when we reach the next era and so on
much later eras have "Task forces" for example Range/Melee/and Mobile units spawn in one go rather than just the two
Barbarians only need a small tweak compare to my other opinions where i feel big changes should be made
More realist unit type spawn like the post above Ships could be an era behind so a galley could only spawn once civs have caravels. caravels when we reach the next era and so on
much later eras have "Task forces" for example Range/Melee/and Mobile units spawn in one go rather than just the two
Barbarians only need a small tweak compare to my other opinions where i feel big changes should be made
Another request for toning down the barbarians. Having them spawn on visible hexes just isn't fun. They also seemed much more aggressive making a beeline for my cities although that might be because there were a lot more of them or I was just fed up by this point.
youngsteve
Prince
I disagree about barbs being to hard. They are fun & more relevant for long periods of the game, instead of a slight annoyance in the beginning. If you don't like them play with normal or even chilled barbs, which are a lot less.
I really enjoy the barb changes. Prior to the change I only had to adjust my choices if I was playing on raging barbs. Now Chill barbs / Normal Barbs / Raging Barbs all make you play differently.
Also not trying to be snarky but for those who think barbs are OP you can just check "Chill Barbarians" on game creation. I use it sometimes depending on who I am playing or what strat I am trying to accomplish.
Also not trying to be snarky but for those who think barbs are OP you can just check "Chill Barbarians" on game creation. I use it sometimes depending on who I am playing or what strat I am trying to accomplish.
Changes i would like to see:
- Barb camps no longer spawn on visible tiles. (leave that for raging barbs mode )
- Increased spawn rates in undiscovered (under the clouds) tiles to make them encourage exploration/colonisation (especially for islands)
- No change to barbs under "fog of war" tiles (explored but no clouds). Maybe increase spawn rates in early game
To make barbs more relevant and interesting:
- Mid to late game barbs should focus more on city states and cities with low happiness
- Low happiness cities can spawn barbs occasionally with increased chance in later eras
- City states with conflicting influences have high chance to spawn barb camps nearby
- Barb camps no longer spawn on visible tiles. (leave that for raging barbs mode )
- Increased spawn rates in undiscovered (under the clouds) tiles to make them encourage exploration/colonisation (especially for islands)
- No change to barbs under "fog of war" tiles (explored but no clouds). Maybe increase spawn rates in early game
To make barbs more relevant and interesting:
- Mid to late game barbs should focus more on city states and cities with low happiness
- Low happiness cities can spawn barbs occasionally with increased chance in later eras
- City states with conflicting influences have high chance to spawn barb camps nearby
Keep in mind that fog of war / visibility is separate for each team.
Where's that setting found? In Advance Game Options I have No Barbarians or Raging Barbarians
Rick Drayson
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2020
- Messages
- 64
The new barbs are great for celts and aztecs
For me it is in my Advanced Game Options. It is another checkbox like No Barbs , Raging Barbs. Now you have me questioning if that is from Civ 5 itself or from VP...
For me I have the full Civ 5 install and expansions. I don't know if that is a factor.
AndreyK
King
I think it from Really Advanced Setup mod.
Overall I think the changes are good and I enjoy the increased action, but I think the spawn rate on camps could be turned down 10-20%. Multiple times in my current game I’ll clear a camp and another one will spawn in the immediate area before my troops can even leave.
That being said, is the rate that camps spawn units lower than before? Obviously there are way more camps but I feel like after the initial unit that spawns with the camp you don’t see much. I know before attacking a camp would usually cause increased spawning but I haven’t noticed that happening.
I’d like fewer camps but the camps you do get to be stronger. Right now it feels more like whack-a-mole.
That being said, is the rate that camps spawn units lower than before? Obviously there are way more camps but I feel like after the initial unit that spawns with the camp you don’t see much. I know before attacking a camp would usually cause increased spawning but I haven’t noticed that happening.
I’d like fewer camps but the camps you do get to be stronger. Right now it feels more like whack-a-mole.
I think if there's any change to spawning that I could get behind it's making them unable to spawn 2 distance from a border instead of 1 (and maybe back to 1 on raging barbs.) It's not the number of barbs but their ability to spawn in small places inside you/near your civ that makes it very rough on occasion.
smorgasborgas
Chieftain
- Joined
- Oct 7, 2020
- Messages
- 67
I see a lot of options for barbarians in the CoreDefines.sql but they mostly seem to control the NUMBER of barbarians. Is there a place where I can control the strength? Ideally I would add one upgrade to the barbs and turn down the spawn rate. This way there are fewer barbarians that are (much) harder to take down so that they aren't just gold and culture balloons for Authority/Songhai/Aztecs/etc. to snowball. At the moment I just turned up the heal rate to 70 so you pretty much have to have 3-5 units to take down a camp in early eras.
also fyi, fewer camps and much higher spawn rate is easily customizable in CoreDefines.sql. i did that for my last game and it's significantly better.
also fyi, fewer camps and much higher spawn rate is easily customizable in CoreDefines.sql. i did that for my last game and it's significantly better.
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