The Worst Trait

[Alraun]

The primary argument against Creative seems to be "well, you can get your culture from other sources." This is a load of crap and you can make similar statements about most of the other traits. Nothing in the game is nearly as effective at expanding your borders as the Creative trait. Whenever you have a tight border with someone, YOU have the advantage on pushing that cultural border back and forth for resources. Any time you build a new city, it expands much faster than having to wait for an obelisk, theater or library, and in the case of obelisks at least you're wasting valuable resources rushing it that you could be using on something else. Any game where you share a peaceful border with a civ for a prolonged period of time, Creative keeps their cultural borders from pushing yours back and taking all your resources. Any game where you're warmongering a lot, there's no more effective way to expand the borders of your new cities as quickly, hindering enemy troop movement. Creative certainly isn't the best trait, but it's not the worst either.

FWIW, I chose Organized. Given a choice between a trait that might get me 30g a turn at a point in the game where I'm generating 3000g a turn vs a trait that gives 2 culture in all my cities? Not even close.

 

[Foley]

Has anyone considered that there are no less/more useful traits, only trait combinations? And that even then, that can only be measured by your personal play style?

 

[acidsatyr]

i don't believe in trait combinations.

 

[futurehermit]

i can't believe so many people are picking organized <_<

cheaper courthouses people! arguably, one of the most important buildings in the game!!! plus, if you're not financial, it's a great source of income, especially as the game goes on!

 

[Gnarfflinger]

I think they want something more flashy than that...

 

[malekithe]

i can't believe so many people are picking organized <_<

cheaper courthouses people! arguably, one of the most important buildings in the game!!! plus, if you're not financial, it's a great source of income, especially as the game goes on!

Most people also play on noble/prince. Organized is just about the only trait that actually gets stronger as you move up in difficulty. On emperor and higher, I think it's in the top 3 most useful traits. On noble, I can settle 15-20 cities in the BC's and barely even notice the maintenence costs. It's not exactly the same on emperor. Also, since they changed the early game civic cost model (removing the automatic -2 GPT from emperor+), Organized has become noticably weaker in the early game than it was previously.

 

[Alraun]

Most people also play on noble/prince. Organized is just about the only trait that actually gets stronger as you move up in difficulty. On emperor and higher, I think it's in the top 3 most useful traits. On noble, I can settle 15-20 cities in the BC's and barely even notice the maintenence costs. It's not exactly the same on emperor. Also, since they changed the early game civic cost model (removing the automatic -2 GPT from emperor+), Organized has become noticably weaker in the early game than it was previously.

Organized has nothing to do with city maintenance costs. If it did, it would be useful.

 

[malekithe]

Organized has nothing to do with city maintenance costs. If it did, it would be useful.

Two words. Cheaper Courthouses.

Also, Civic costs are directly related to the numbers of cities and people in your empire. It's tantamount to city maintenance and typically accounts for around 1/2 of an empire's total non-military expenditures (with courthouses and forbidden palace in place).

 

[Instant_Cereal]

Most people also play on noble/prince. Organized is just about the only trait that actually gets stronger as you move up in difficulty. On emperor and higher, I think it's in the top 3 most useful traits. On noble, I can settle 15-20 cities in the BC's and barely even notice the maintenence costs. It's not exactly the same on emperor. Also, since they changed the early game civic cost model (removing the automatic -2 GPT from emperor+), Organized has become noticably weaker in the early game than it was previously.

Yeah, I've come to appreciate the organized trait as I've moved up in difficulty, especially with leaders like the Caesar, Washington, and Tokugawa. When your empire gets to the point where it can't fit on your screen and you have like more than 10 cities (I've had some 25+ city games before), that half civics thing helps along with the courthouses.

 

[Alraun]

Two words. Cheaper Courthouses.

So? Granary is the best of all the buildings that get discounted, but it isn't a reason to go Expansive.

Also, Civic costs are directly related to the numbers of cities and people in your empire. It's tantamount to city maintenance and typically accounts for around 1/2 of an empire's total non-military expenditures (with courthouses and forbidden palace in place).

And the gold it saves you is what, maybe 30g a turn in a huge empire late game? It pales in comparison to the benefits of Financial to a point that it's rendered irrelevant and you're better off getting a trait with a more unique effect.

 

[futurehermit]

Most people also play on noble/prince. Organized is just about the only trait that actually gets stronger as you move up in difficulty. On emperor and higher, I think it's in the top 3 most useful traits. On noble, I can settle 15-20 cities in the BC's and barely even notice the maintenence costs. It's not exactly the same on emperor. Also, since they changed the early game civic cost model (removing the automatic -2 GPT from emperor+), Organized has become noticably weaker in the early game than it was previously.

sure, on lower difficulties i guess i can see that...

And the gold it saves you is what, maybe 30g a turn in a huge empire late game? It pales in comparison to the benefits of Financial to a point that it's rendered irrelevant and you're better off getting a trait with a more unique effect.

do you *play* on higher difficulties?

cheaper courthouses + forbidden palace + -50% civic cost is the *only* thing that allows you to expand quickly through conquest. financial certainly won't let you as it takes time for cottages to mature. combine this with a specialist economy, which incidentally is *also* activated via CoL and i fail to see how organized isn't easily one of the premiere traits for the warmonger, which is huge considering how important aggression can be in the higher levels.

 

[Alraun]

do you *play* on higher difficulties?

Currently playing Immortal mostly.

cheaper courthouses + forbidden palace + -50% civic cost is the *only* thing that allows you to expand quickly through conquest. financial certainly won't let you as it takes time for cottages to mature. combine this with a specialist economy, which incidentally is *also* activated via CoL and i fail to see how organized isn't easily one of the premiere traits for the warmonger, which is huge considering how important aggression can be in the higher levels.

Once I see it saving me more than a pittance of gold, I'll become more interested. Even courthouses, although good, are vastly overrated by most.

 

[futurehermit]

Once I see it saving me more than a pittance of gold, I'll become more interested. Even courthouses, although good, are vastly overrated by most.

i notice it making a significant impact. i wouldn't call it a pittance at all. courthouses make or break whether i can keep cities while keeping my research from bottoming out. of course you can let your research bottom out and then play catch up, but with organized, you don't have to...

 

[uberfish]

Organized is good at high levels - but it's by far the most boring of all the traits since all it does is save you some upkeep.

 

[Nares]

Organized is good at high levels - but it's by far the most boring of all the traits since all it does is save you some upkeep.

Hmm, by this logic, Geico is one of the most boring car insurance agencies.

Who would have guessed.

 

[Brave Jay]

expansive seems so useless to me. if you have problems with your health in a city, it's fairly easy to fix, with all of the food resources and health improvements. Besides, its not like it actually hurts your city to be unhealthy, it just slows down your growth. that's it. that's all it does, is slow down your growth. Unlike unhappiness, when you are unhealthy in a city you can still use all of your population in the city to work tiles.

Many times I avoid playing with civs that are expansive. I guess being expansive is not much of a boost, and therefore it is a boring trait to have. No one will play as an expansive civ just because they are so in love with the bonus you get from being expansive. I know there are some small benefits, but overall it doesn't compare to the other available traits.

Organized may seem boring to some people, but its one of my favorites. Sometimes i think its overpowered. The gold you save from civics costs is enough to let you afford the upkeep of an extra city or two. Then when your expansion really needs it, you get courthouses dirt cheap. To me, Organized should be re named expansive and Expansive should be called healthy.

 

[Brave Jay]

So? Granary is the best of all the buildings that get discounted, but it isn't a reason to go Expansive.



And the gold it saves you is what, maybe 30g a turn in a huge empire late game? It pales in comparison to the benefits of Financial to a point that it's rendered irrelevant and you're better off getting a trait with a more unique effect.

That's really the point isn't it? The late game favors the financial civ with cottages that has been lucky enough or skilled enough to avoid an early rush from a pillaging ai, while being organized favors the early game when expansion is critical. Yeah, 30 g per turn is nothing in the late game of a huge empire, but through the first half of the game or so, 30 gpt is really nice. half price courthouses are a must if your going to research at a high level and maintain a large empire through the first part of the game. That's why I think that Washington as a leader can be so powerful, he has both financial and organized. Good economy early and late in the game. You could compare being organized with founding a religion and spreading it, it helps a lot early on, but later is not as noticeable.

 

[sekong]

With the new Charismatic trait, expansive get a good match. let's see who is the Charming Healthy building guy/gal.

 

[uberfish]

Hmm, by this logic, Geico is one of the most boring car insurance agencies.

Who would have guessed.

Car insurance has what exactly to do with strategy games... ?

 

[wkndwrrr]

Organized. Usually civic upkeep is around what, 100 gold at the very maximum? Paying only half of that is not going to really change the game.