The Zulu

[ElliotS]

I hate spearman/pikeman UUs on warmongers. You want to field swordsmen. They get strong, and then you get your UU that they can't upgrade into. Impi are very nice in that they are where swordsmen and spearmen merge, so all your best, highly promoted units turn into your UU and can roll face over the whole continent.

In my opinion the buff that would help the AI the most is that newly-built Impi should get all 3 of the zulu unique promotions for free. That allows the silly AI to churn out a deadly army quite well, and doesn't benefit players as much because we build less units and prefer highly-promoted upgrades.

If we wanted to go a bit further I would like to see the Zulu get some actual yields of some sort. They're too war-focused, and while tribute was a nice addition to their suite of tools they can't really handle peace well.

Maybe a bonus to yields in cities with a garrison (benefiting AI with higher unit caps) or just something that speaks to another part of their history.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

Doesn't the Spear Throw promotion also give bonuses against Gunpowder Units? Moving to Pikeman and the promotion is lost on upgrade means that has to change as well.

Tercio are NOT classified as Gunpowder Units, Fusiliers are. Apparently, Musketeers (Tercio UU) are Gunpowder. Maybe this is an edge that Impi are not making good use of.

Currently Zulu are incredibly similar to Sweden, and frankly Sweden is better and more exciting.

Is there a reason that Impi are a tercio? Aside from clearly wielding spears and unlocking at gunpowder, it contributes to the similarities with Sweden. There are 3 tercio UUs, all on warmongers. There is only 1 pike UU, Polynesia who plays very differently from Zulu.

Would the civ be more interesting if imp replaced pikeman?

Well since all Zulu Units need 25% less XP for Promotions, that should make them versatile for all forms of warfare and not just Melee. Their Ikanda and Impis just happens to give them an emphasis on Melee Units. They don't receive any bonuses to generating XP, unlike Sweden, so it's possible that Sweden Ranged Units may outpace their Zulu counterparts.

Maybe Zulu Units should gain XP from Tributing CS's. Making Impis available earlier would be another option, they don't look like they make good use of Gunpowder anyway.

 

[CrazyG]

I hate spearman/pikeman UUs on warmongers. You want to field swordsmen. They get strong, and then you get your UU that they can't upgrade into. Impi are very nice in that they are where swordsmen and spearmen merge, so all your best, highly promoted units turn into your UU and can roll face over the whole continent.

I agree that pikes aren't great, but I always though the point of the zulu was to make a normally mediocre unit the core of your army. I was thinking like a 22 CS pikemen with spear throw and a bonus against higher tech units.

The thing with your suggestion of merging elite units on Tercio is Sweden exists and executes basically that exact strategy.

In my opinion the buff that would help the AI the most is that newly-built Impi should get all 3 of the zulu unique promotions for free. That allows the silly AI to churn out a deadly army quite well, and doesn't benefit players as much because we build less units and prefer highly-promoted upgrades.

Doesn't this make taking the promotions earlier in the game a huge waste?

 

[pineappledan]

Why not move Carolean BACK, instead of moving Impi forward?

I like Impi where it is; I think Carolean could fit as a Fusilier replacement, maybe one that unlocks earlier?

• I will reiterate my support for changing the buffalo line promotions slightly (and correcting their order).

Maybe Zulu Units should gain XP from Tributing CS's. Making Impis available earlier would be another option, they don't look like they make good use of Gunpowder anyway.

A global instant XP would be exactly like Sweden. I think that's exactly what we want to avoid.

Maybe a bonus to yields in cities with a garrison (benefiting AI with higher unit caps) or just something that speaks to another part of their history.

Maybe something like 1XP per turn for a unit when garrisoned in a city with an Ikanda?
That could be interpreted as a reference to the Amabutho system
I've always felt that the Ikanda needs a little more to make it feel like a useful UB, separate from the promotion.

 

[tothePAIN]

Why not move Carolean BACK, instead of moving Impi forward?

I like Impi where it is; I think Carolean could fit as a Fusilier replacement, maybe one that unlocks earlier?

• I will reiterate my support for changing the buffalo line promotions slightly (and correcting their order).

A global instant XP would be exactly like Sweden. I think that's exactly what we want to avoid.

Maybe something like 1XP per turn for a unit when garrisoned in a city with an Ikanda?
That could be interpreted as a reference to the Amabutho system
I've always felt that the Ikanda needs a little more to make it feel like a useful UB, separate from the promotion.

Let's not nerf Sweden just to allow Impis to stay where they are. Caroleans are in a great spot. Sweden can beeline for Gunpowder and then switch to the top of the tree for Skolas to try to keep up in science as is.

Right now, Impis aren't actually that strong of a UU. I'd rather have Caroleans. Sweden does the XP stacking thing better than zulus, for the most part. (Zulu's advantage is that Zulus can build units with Lvl 4 promos with only 75xp, which is possible from Brandenburg, orders, etc.) Impis are also not satisfying because their upgrade doesn't persist. They are also inferior to both Caroleans and Musketeers, which are strong enough to change the tide of a game.

Impis getting all of the 3 unique Zulu promos would be great because they stick around. It would also let the player focus on other upgrades and then really get to embrace the essence of the Zulu upgrades by having melee units with 3 moves and resistance.

Impis that automatically got the other Zulu upgrades would allow Zulu to execute the upgrade strategy and suddenly really enjoy the promos, while allowing players to get other essential upgrades like City Assault, etc.

Doesn't this make taking the promotions earlier in the game a huge waste?

Maybe, but isn't this true with other promotions as well that could theoretically be gotten? Sweden could build units with march, it just doesn't, because the promos are coming. Impis with all Zulu promos would be a big enough powerspike.

There seems to be a sentiment / consensus that Zulu are an inferior version of Sweden. Both are very heavily military focused, but Sweden does it better and has Skolas for late game science. Most of the time, the Zulus don't actually get to use their upgrades, because on melee infantry units, you mostly want the drill line, for city assault and the defense promotion. If Impis gave them all 3 upgrades, it would be huge.

 

[CrazyG]

Maybe, but isn't this true with other promotions as well that could theoretically be gotten? Sweden could build units with march, it just doesn't, because the promos are coming. Impis with all Zulu promos would be a big enough powerspike.

The difference here is huge. If you get march for free, you typically don't take march before that. But that's only march, you can still take overrun and other promotions in the same area. Sweden could still take march on other units, like knights. If you do take march on a spear or sword, you waste just one promotion, not three.

With zulu promotions for free, we are talking about an entire line of promotions that ought to be skipped since you get them for free. The primary function of the Ikanda being skipped. Why do these promotions unlock at ancient era if taking them is suboptimal?

 

[ElliotS]

I agree that pikes aren't great, but I always though the point of the zulu was to make a normally mediocre unit the core of your army. I was thinking like a 22 CS pikemen with spear throw and a bonus against higher tech units.

The thing with your suggestion of merging elite units on Tercio is Sweden exists and executes basically that exact strategy.

Doesn't this make taking the promotions earlier in the game a huge waste?

In my original suggestion I said newly built impis get all 3 for free. Then you still can pick them earlier, because you're not getting them for free regardless. It's not like you can avoid building units before Tercios, so it probably wouldn't encourage anything too game-y.

You're right that sweden is basically better Zulu, but I think that moving Impi to Pikemen would make them WORSE than they are now, and not solve the real problem.

Zulu face 2 main problems:
1- Their playstyle is extremely human-focused. AI can't get enough promotions stacked to compete. Gving NEW impi free promotions gives a bigger boost for AI than players.
2- They don't get the sort of yields to keep up later that Sweden gets from Skolas. They need something to give them more yields, and I think some bonus for garrisoned units is the right place to go. Maybe XP and 1+10% to all yields in each city with a garrison, added on to their UB?

 

[Drakle]

Well what could be done with the Zulu unique promotions, is have each be unlocked for all Melee Land units once a trigger is hit. And not be unlocked by normal EXP promotions.

The triggers could be a number of things. Like, say Great Generals Births. That means you don't get all the bonuses, at once, but it is entirely possible to get all three by Impi unlock.


And yes, Zulu needs some yields added to their UA.

 

[tothePAIN]

The difference here is huge. If you get march for free, you typically don't take march before that. But that's only march, you can still take overrun and other promotions in the same area. Sweden could still take march on other units, like knights. If you do take march on a spear or sword, you waste just one promotion, not three.

With zulu promotions for free, we are talking about an entire line of promotions that ought to be skipped since you get them for free. The primary function of the Ikanda being skipped. Why do these promotions unlock at ancient era if taking them is suboptimal?

I think taking them is already suboptimal. I'd rather have city assault. France gets Lightning Warfare on Musketeers and gets 3 move infantry that ignores ZoC. I'd rather have a Drill Audi City Assault Musketeer with 75 xp than an Impi with all 3 Zulu line upgrades and Drill II (also 75 xp)

What if Zulu could access other promos like City Assault, Stalwart, Marxg etc. After finishing the zulu line of upgrades? So they can basically rush 3 movement infantry and then customize their upgrades as they like.

 

[ElliotS]

Well what could be done with the Zulu unique promotions, is have each be unlocked for all Melee Land units once a trigger is hit. And not be unlocked by normal EXP promotions.

The triggers could be a number of things. Like, say Great Generals Births. That means you don't get all the bonuses, at once, but it is entirely possible to get all three by Impi unlock.


And yes, Zulu needs some yields added to their UA.

I'm really liking the idea that the promotions don't get picked, and get unlocked by some other mechanism instead. Not GG births tho, Sweden isn't standing on Zulu's toes so much as licking their face while T-posing, and I don't really want to get any closer to them.

Maybe they unlock the first when building their UB like normal, the second when they demand heavy tribute for at least 25%, and the third when they unlock their UU?

 

[pineappledan]

Let's not nerf Sweden just to allow Impis to stay where they are. Caroleans are in a great spot. Sweden can beeline for Gunpowder and then switch to the top of the tree for Skolas to try to keep up in science as is.

Why would moving Caroleans back to Fusilier necessarily be a nerf? Make Caroleans a Fusilier and unlock them at Metallurgy, or maybe Economics.

Impis getting all of the 3 unique Zulu promos would be great because they stick around. It would also let the player focus on other upgrades and then really get to embrace the essence of the Zulu upgrades by having melee units with 3 moves and resistance.

I am dead set opposed to the idea of just wiping out the Ikanda's 1 unique trait by overwriting it with the UU's unique trait. Having every aspect of the Zulu's kit congeal and bleed into each other like that makes them even more 1-dimensional.
I do agree that the bonus vs gunpowder should stay; I had forgotten I "fixed" that in 4UC

What if Zulu could access other promos like City Assault, Stalwart, Marxg etc. After finishing the zulu line of upgrades? So they can basically rush 3 movement infantry and then customize their upgrades as they like.

This is a much more palatable idea to me; give the Zulu promotion line a small mix of leaf promotions from both the Drill and Shock Lines so investing in that line doesn't feel like it's setting you back.
Maybe Overrun, Stalwart, Woodsman, and City Assault?

2- They don't get the sort of yields to keep up later that Sweden gets from Skolas. They need something to give them more yields, and I think some bonus for garrisoned units is the right place to go. Maybe XP and 1+10% to all yields in each city with a garrison, added on to their UB?

Nubia is a custom civ that gives +2 and 10% of production only, and that's already enough to be a UA. 10% of all yields would be bonkers.

The ideas I can think of for Zulu, w.r.t. economics, surround the Amabuthos or the Mfecane.
Perhaps some additional effect on tributing or border growth?
Maybe killing units could contribute to intimidation, or you could get a flat yields bonus for every city-state that is afraid of you (with some minimum floor, at least until minimum tributing for 2 is fixed)?

 

[tothePAIN]

Why would moving Caroleans back to Fusilier necessarily be a nerf? Make Caroleans a Fusilier and unlock them at Metallurgy, or maybe Economics.

I am dead set opposed to the idea of just wiping out the Ikanda's 1 unique trait by overwriting it with the UU's unique trait. Having every aspect of the Zulu's kit congeal and bleed into each other like that makes them even more 1-dimensional.
I do agree that the bonus vs gunpowder should stay; I had forgotten I "fixed" that in 4UC
This is a much more palatable idea to me; give the Zulu promotion line a small mix of leaf promotions from both the Drill and Shock Lines so investing in that line doesn't feel like it's setting you back.
Maybe Overrun, Stalwart, Woodsman, and City Assault?
Nubia is a custom civ that gives +2 and 10% of production only, and that's already enough to be a UA. 10% of all yields would be bonkers.

The ideas I can think of for Zulu, w.r.t. economics, surround the Amabuthos or the Mfecane.
Perhaps some additional effect on tributing or border growth?
Maybe killing units could contribute to intimidation, or you could get a flat yields bonus for every city-state that is afraid of you (with some minimum floor, at least until minimum tributing for 2 is fixed)?

Why give them access to only a few infantry upgrades - why not give them access to all infantry promotions? Infantry units generally aren't that great anyways. Let Zulu have the fantasy of highly upgraded mobile infantry. Let them build March stalwart city assault infantry with 3 movement and resistance to ranged attacks. (Sweden can already get March stalwart city assault infantry.)

 

[ElliotS]

I am dead set opposed to the idea of just wiping out the Ikanda's 1 unique trait by overwriting it with the UU's unique trait.

What, are you not going to build barracks? I figured saying they get all 3 is the same as saying they get the extra 2, because you'll always have your UB. There's no overwriting it. The whole problem with the line is that it competes with other promotions and is a dead-end.

Nubia is a custom civ that gives +2 and 10% of production only, and that's already enough to be a UA. 10% of all yields would be bonkers.

Well I can't speak to the balance of a custom civ, but I'll take your word on it. Seems a bit weak to me. 10% for all yields is 100% overkill tho, I agree. Was kinda in a rush when writing and didn't have enough time to really think about it.

Maybe +1 for cities with a garrison, scaling with Era?

I really like the idea of unlocking the unique promotions automatically based on some game condition, but allowing you to pick the best promotions afterwards would also solve the problem in maybe a simpler extent.

 

[pineappledan]

Well I can't speak to the balance of a custom civ, but I'll take your word on it. Seems a bit weak to me. 10% for all yields is 100% overkill tho, I agree. Was kinda in a rush when writing and didn't have enough time to really think about it.

They do other things. I think you would like them.

Maybe +1 for cities with a garrison, scaling with Era?

Too powerful imo. I don't think yields on garrisons are where I would want to go with this.
I would prefer some sort of economy via tribute or yields from gaining levels on units, or something else.

Maybe Zulu units could heal an additional 10HP when they gain levels as well? i dunno...

What, are you not going to build barracks? I figured saying they get all 3 is the same as saying they get the extra 2, because you'll always have your UB. There's no overwriting it. The whole problem with the line is that it competes with other promotions and is a dead-end.

I'm going to build barracks and take advantage of the unique advantage that the unique Barracks gives, which is the opportunity for a unique promotion tree. Just giving that entire line to a single unit later on undermines the unique aspect of that building.

However, that unique promotion tree should actually be a TREE, not just a single stem. Adding leaf promotions would help. I disagree with @tothePAIN that they should have ALL the leaf promotions available after only lvl 3; Access to tier 4 promotions at lvl 4 on zulu means it only would take 45 XP to get overrun or something else major. That would be huge.

 

[tothePAIN]

They do other things. I think you would like them.

Too powerful imo. I don't think yields on garrisons are where I would want to go with this.
I would prefer some sort of economy via tribute or yields from gaining levels on units, or something else.

Maybe Zulu units could heal an additional 10HP when they gain levels as well? i dunno...
I'm going to build barracks and take advantage of the unique advantage that the unique Barracks gives, which is the opportunity for a unique promotion tree. Just giving that entire line to a single unit later on undermines the unique aspect of that building.

However, that unique promotion tree should actually be a TREE, not just a single stem. Adding leaf promotions would help. I disagree with @tothePAIN that they should have ALL the leaf promotions available after only lvl 3; Access to tier 4 promotions at lvl 4 on zulu means it only would take 45 XP to get overrun or something else major. That would be huge.

I'm not an expert on the promotion Tree. I would like Zulu infantry who complete all 3 Buffalo policies to get everything they could get after Drill III or Shock III. I think of units as Level = Promo, is that right? So Drill III units is level 3? (With some exceptions for units that have free promos.)

I disagree that this will be overpowered. They are still part of the infantry line, which is only so effective at war because they have to trade damage. From a fun perspective, Zulu's unique aspect that is supposed to be fun is the 3 move infantry skirmishing units. But the promo line isn't strong enough to be worth taking a lot of the time. So let's make it more possible.

Zulu economy is supposed to be boosted by tributing. The issue there is that tributing is broken.

 

[CrazyG]

Pain's idea about unlocking the big promotions after the buffalo line is great, and its a simple change to make.

What, are you not going to build barracks? I figured saying they get all 3 is the same as saying they get the extra 2, because you'll always have your UB. There's no overwriting it. The whole problem with the line is that it competes with other promotions and is a dead-end.

After your suggestions the UB would sucks. the unique tech position is overall a disadvantage. then it has 1 culture and 1 extra supply. It's main feature is the new promotions, which apparently get given for free without the building.

I don't see why it's so important that an impi is a tercio to converge your sword promotions if the newly made ones are getting the promotions anyways. That's also new code and not obvious how it works. Why would all other UUs get their free promotions when upgraded, but impi do not?

Saying a pikemen UU must be bad is a stubborn lack of creativity. You could make it 22 CS with spear throw and formation. A samurai has 25 CS for comparison, and impi would have no iron requirement.

 

[azum4roll]

Is the Bonus vs Gunpowder currently on the Spear Throw promotion? If so, we can separate it into another promotion which persists on upgrade, and then turn Impis back into Pikemen.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

Is the Bonus vs Gunpowder currently on the Spear Throw promotion? If so, we can separate it into another promotion which persists on upgrade, and then turn Impis back into Pikemen.

Special Forces and XComs have a similar bonus.

 

[azum4roll]

Special Forces and XComs have a similar bonus.

Unrelated to the topic, but I think the "Bonus" promotions should state more clearly whether the bonus is Attack only or both Attack and Defense.

Is the current Impi bonus Attack only?

 

[ElliotS]

I would prefer some sort of economy via tribute or yields from gaining levels on units, or something else.

Yields on promotion is literally Japan lol. Not that I haven't thought of it.

I don't think doubling down on tribute is a good solution to improve their economy, even if we fix tribute to not be broken.

Saying a pikemen UU must be bad is a stubborn lack of creativity. You could make it 22 CS with spear throw and formation. A samurai has 25 CS for comparison, and impi would have no iron requirement.

So are you going to build swordsmen and then have a mix of nonunique longswordsmen and Impi, or build only spearmen and hurt your warmongering ability early? Both situations feel bad.