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[SCENARIO] Thelen Epres Mrel Nelthelrinae

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Completed Scenarios' started by Nathiri, Jul 3, 2017.

  1. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    OK, (possible) bug report time. War Academy does not allow new Settlers/Traders to be built. Not by me (Lerians) and (I looked in the .biq) apparently not by anyone else, either.

    If this was not intentional, then it ought to be fixed. I wonder if the Trader(upgrade) could be given WarAcad as its prereq-tech? (I believe) The Palace Trader would still autoproduce it in the early stages (until ThinCom), and then after WarAcad it could be built from scratch and upgraded (since the upgraded nation-specific Traders' only prereqs are the nation-specific techs). The Trader(upgrade) would need an AI-strat, though, or the AI won't build it — and probably a population cost too (not sure what happens if autoproduced units have pop-costs, though — does the autoproducing town lose the pop-point or not?).

    Oh, and did I see that the upgrade is not cost-free after all? The Trader(upgrade) costs 20 shields, but the nation-specific Trader-units all cost 30 shields? That should also be changed, since the AI cannot manage its economy properly — hell, you could make the Trader(upgrade) cost more than the nation-specific Traders, if you want to make it less easy (for the human) to spam Traders during the end-game.

    Since Domination is no longer a realistic option, and Conquest never really was, I'm now going for the Empire (VP) victory. Having been ~10000 VPs behind the Berelliseg before I DoW'd them, I am now only ~1000 VPs behind (they're now at ~44000 VPs). At this rate, I should easily be able to overtake them before game-end, especially if the Kyrregos also continue to throw their 5.1.1 units at me in such large quantities...

    Another couple of niggles, though:

    I have no Traun, and nor does anyone else (even if they weren't all embargo-ing me, according to CivAssist no-one's even hooked any). I looked on the map in the Editor, and there are no Traun-tiles anywhere near Leria: the nearest source I saw was north of Telasha, but I already conquered their northernmost town before WW forced a (temporary?) halt to that campaign, and I still can't see it on the in-game map (it might be in a still-unexplored area, though). So all those lovely-looking upgrades for the Lerian Arguerens and Denviels are pretty much just pie-in-the-sky — I seriously doubt anyone will ever get to build them.

    And having whip-rushing for most of the Kiinims is really bad for the AI. I'm now fighting on multiple fronts, attacking with pretty tall stacks, and they're all desperately whipping defenders. In my campaign against the Lesegolons, using my Northern Champions (I colonised the necessary resource on the Ephrirans' former land), the first town I took (with Bersegor's Voyage in it!) was at Pop14 when I started, but was at Pop1 when it finally fell (it took several turns, because I forgot that the NCs could blitz...).
    How were they intended to work? Because the Barbarian Encampments gave me much more trouble (one of them bombed a newly-built Outpost to bits — twice! :mad: ) than the spiders ever did.

    Being Immobile, the Queen Fesites can't do very much more to the human than just block use of the tile they're sitting on. Their ZoC-damage can easily be avoided by moving units carefully in their vicinity (the only ZoC-damage I incurred was to newly-built units auto-moving to rally-points), and to avoid spawning their mobile offspring, I simply left them alone until I had fast-units strong enough to damage/ kill them (Jistlers and Merssetars). But I planted towns right next to them without any worries, so if you wanted to make the Queens more dangerous in SP, maybe give them Range=1 (lethal) bombardment...?

    TBH, I thought the 'wild nests' were the equivalent of epic-game barb-camps, though — that's where the Erets all came from on the 2 era-changes (although the nests don't seem to respawn after being destroyed...?)
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2018
  2. Nathiri

    Nathiri Commander

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    My hint was still rather cryptic. You still have to build the "War Academy", and the Palace Trader goes obsolete at Port City so if you already teched that....

    In the editor, there's a traun source in northern Lerian and one in Ephrinor.

    For some reason, barbarian chiefdom units dont have all the abilities a civ-controlled unit does. The Spiders were supposed to act the exact same as the barbarian camps, yet they dont. The barbarian civ actually only bombards when at war, and you cant be at war with barbarian chiefdom. However, if you play the scenario in MP, the spiders act like the barbarian camps and dont need war. Dont know whats up there.
     
  3. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    But there is no 'War Academy' building available in any of my towns' build-lists, nor is it shown as becoming available with the tech, nor is there an entry for a 'War Academy' building within the 'Pedia. The closest match I could find was the 'Warrior Training Camp' Wonder available with 'Lerian Epic Construction'(?) — is that what you meant? (If so, the 'Pedia entry for this Wonder does not indicate that it produces Traders)

    Just after I got the WarAcad tech, I did get the Domestic Advisor popping up saying "We can build Palace Trader — maybe we should!", but I couldn't figure out why she'd said that, since I still had one in my Capital! (I wanted to sell it after it went obsolete, but I couldn't, suggesting to me that it's an SW?). So I figured that was just a minor glitch in the mod — like the Cotton(?)-icon that I can see in my towns' Lux-lists (which I think should rather be Silks: I currently have Wines, Silks and Incense hooked).

    But then I looked again, and a PT is (now) available in one of my Miryaan conquests — presumably becoming available after I built a Barracks there? But since the PT is (still) obsolete with Thinking Combat, there seems little point in building (another) one?
    Huh? Or did you mean that the Warrior Training Camp goes obsolete with the Port City tech? (If so, the 'Pedia entry also does not mention this)

    Though talking about the WTC, I see no good reason to ever build it. Since each Barracks built makes one citizen unhappy in every town (you even caution against overbuilding them in the 'Pedia for this very reason!), having a Wonder which gives a free Barracks in every town seems rather badly unbalanced: if I have 10 towns (founded or captured), each with a free Wonder-Barracks, that means I will make 9 (or 10?) citizens instantly unhappy in every town.

    Given the AI's failure to expand, the extremely aggressive Barbarian-nations and wild animals, and the (resultant) distance/ difficulty in hooking up resources/ neighbouring nations by road (and since water-trade isn't possible until Port City/Harbours are obtained) — not to mention the AI-nations' willingness to sign Trade Embargoes with absolutely anyone, against absolutely everyone (i.e. no Resource-trading possible!) — I don't see any way that such a degree of unhappiness could feasibly be countered. Of course, the AI-Nations won't recognise this, and (if they get that far) will rush to build their free-Barracks Wonder — and cripple themselves.

    And there's no way I could have got as far as Port City in this game! As it is, I'm going to be lucky to complete my current project (Beriock) before game-over, because I'm still min.-running at SCI%=10% (can't afford to pay more than that). With hindsight, I should probably have switched Kiinim in the first era after all, to the one that loses the despot-penalty. At least then my towns would have grown a little faster (irrigated Grass would have given more FPT, and the Fishing Harbour would actually have been worth building) and/or produced units quicker (mined Hills would have given more SPT), allowing me to expand/ conquer faster.
    Well that's weird. I looked at my copy of the .biq in the Editor again, and I now see that this is true (I hadn't looked at my core area previously, because I already 'knew' I didn't have any there).

    But in-game, there was certainly never a source in Leria (I looked at my earliest manual save, on Turn 37, before that tile was roaded, and I had none), and after my advance uncovered the relevant tile in Ephrinan (saved on Turn ~130), there was none there either — nor was there a road or ruins to indicate that the source had previously been hooked and then exhausted.

    However, I see from the .biq that you have set both an appearance ratio (=200) and a disappearance ratio (=600) for Traun. According to that 'Resource distribution in C3C vs PtW' thread that you linked to elsewhere, for preplaced resources, the AR should be zero. I'm not sure what happens if that rule isn't followed, but I could well imagine that if the 'natural' abundance (calculated from the AR) is lower than the 'preplaced' abundance on a premade map, then maybe the game-engine (pseudo)randomly removes any excess...?
    This bolded part sounds wrong. In epic-game Civ, all Nations are in a permanent state of (undeclared) war with the barbarians. That's why the AI goes barb-hunting, and the barbs attack your units and towns on sight.

    Do the Fesite-units (also) already have HN? If not, giving it to them might help them act a little more... erm... 'feisty'. I honestly didn't even notice that the Queens could bombard offensively.

    Oh, and another suggestion re. units, purely cosmetic: the Archer-type units should maybe be flagged with 'Ranged attack animation', because at the moment, when you order them to attack, they run into the neighbouring tile, and then start shooting their arrows at point-blank range, right over their target's head... :crazyeye:
     
  4. Nathiri

    Nathiri Commander

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    I meant the Barracks:
    https://gyazo.com/cc463141714e6ce71dd53e5dbc3e22a3

    Thanks for your feedback! Perhaps I went a little crazy in some of my decision making :D

    Just a question, did you get the short tech jump in the early game? There's a 2 free tech bonus somewhere.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2018
  5. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    Aha! That makes sense now. Doesn't answer the question of whether newly-built PTs can produce Traders after the 'first' PT already went obsolete, though? If not, then maybe you could add a 'new' Settler-producer instead, e.g. 'Colonial Adminstration'...
    You're welcome! Even if most of my feedback has essentially been complaints that it doesn't suit my playstyle ;) playing TEMN has been fun, for the most part (although reducing the frequency and/or duration of Plague-outbreaks would definitely make it more fun to play... :p ).

    The only really poorly considered idea that I've encountered in TEMN (IMHO, obviously!), is the application of universal unhappiness to generic improvements — many of which can be built in any town, without restriction beyond the tech required. This disadvantage should be used really sparingly, in my view, because while the Human can take a nuanced approach, and build (or not build!) accordingly, the Civ3 AI can't, and won't.

    Spoiler Blowing my own trumpet :
    In my still-being-tweaked Epic Game Overhaul (so-named just for the acronym!), which I am deliberately designing to restrict the AI's build-choices to more like what a human [me!] would choose to build, I have added "+1 unhappy in all towns" only to a couple of (near) unique buildings that I regarded as OP with no downside: Theory_Of_Evolution, on the grounds that it upsets the devout (SciMethod now also obsoletes Temples!) ;); and Nuclear-Plants, which require a Factory, plus Uranium, plus freshwater.
    So in TEMN, having universal unhappiness for the Smithey(?) could/should probably also be mitigated by ensuring that the AI can't built one in every town, e.g. either by making it a SWonder, or imposing (more) restrictive conditions on its buildability (e.g. "Requires [resource/ metal] [in city radius]", "Requires river/freshwater").

    The Outpost's maintenance-cost alone would likely be a sufficient incentive to the Human to always found towns adjacent to freshwater (to avoid having to build the Outpost to get to Size 2/ Pop3). But again — just like it frequently founds towns 1 tile away from rivers in the epic-game, thus also necessitating an Aqueduct — the Civ3 AI won't take this into account. This makes Outposts such a 'necessary' building, that it probably shouldn't give universal unhappiness either (but maybe +1 local unhappiness).

    And of course, the same applies to the Barracks — especially when combined with the Barracks-providing Wonders. If a Barracks rather caused +1 local unhappiness (due to the rowdy squaddies disturbing the neighbourhood!), and maybe also added +1 pollution (due to the troops training in the local fields!), then those might be better 'downsides' to this building. And the Barracks-Wonders would then only make 1 (additional) person unhappy in each town, which would certainly be less unbalancing than making nearly everybody unhappy in every town...
    Yes I did, it was a nice surprise after I built the 5th Eromility-building, IIRC. The tech-jump actually got me into the 2nd age (if only I'd known, I might have considered delaying completion, to get 2 free 2nd-age techs!).
     
  6. Nathiri

    Nathiri Commander

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    Not quite sure about the Palace Trader question. It's supposed to produce them and I dont see why it would matter. It's two separate buildings with a space on the 2nd to make it appear the same name. So I dont see why there would be a conflict.

    I had tweaked the plague quite a bit and I thought I had limited it decently, but still kept its effects at a level where it was catastrophic, but it didnt continuously happen due to the limit and variance.

    The 5th Eromility building was designed to have it built just prior to switching kiinims. So it encourages not switching kiinim too soon, but should immediately after. It also is a way to make the player pile up maintenance costs........not that I have them for that.
     
  7. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    Ah, well, OK then.

    But I would point out that, from the player's perspective, it is not at all obvious that they are 2 different buildings — which is a(nother) good argument for using a noticeably different name for the second building ;)
    Over the course of just under 300 turns, I suffered 3 separate outbreaks, each of which affected at least 2/3rds of my (major) towns, and which lasted ~10 turns from index case to final eradication. And the only way to prevent (random) garrisoned unit-death during a plague-outbreak is to move them out of the affected town; doing so left all my towns completely undefended, which not only increased unhappiness (due to the loss of the MP effect), it was also relatively nerve-wracking while the M=3 Northern Barbarian units were still around.

    Is that as catastrophic as you intended? ;)

    I finished my game yesterday evening. As expected, I won on Empire-points on Turn ~285, having acquired maybe a third of the second-era techs (with perhaps half of them generally known to the 3 or 4 AI-Nations more advanced than mine).
     
  8. Nathiri

    Nathiri Commander

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    Cool, nice job! Screenshot of your civ? It sounded like it stretched quite far.
     
  9. Takhisis

    Takhisis la la la la la

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    I see that tjs282 is a fellow Discworld fan.
    Don't worry, I've got them figured out, mostly, especially now that I know how to pronounce ‘ehm’. :)
     
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  10. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    Pretty far, yeah, but apart from my original core, it's not continuous: just a whole bunch of remote town-clusters, connected by very long roads (I think I had ~15% of the land area, and ~24% population at game-end).

    I'd be more than happy to upload a screenshot(s) (and savegames if you're interested) — but doing so will have to wait until I've got an internet connection working on my desktop box again.

    Spoiler Whingein' and moanin' :
    Having become increasingly intermittent/unreliable over the summer ("DNS server is not responding or does not exist"), it finally seems to have packed up at the beginning of this month ("Ethernet does not have a valid IP configuration") — shortly after a Windows Defender update, although I'm suuuure that's just coincidental. No solution that I've Googled/tried so far has worked. I suspect I may need a new network card, even though I bought the whole damn rig brand new in early 2015...
    Isn't everyone? ;)
     
  11. Nathiri

    Nathiri Commander

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    Well I hadnt heard of it.
     
  12. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    OK, minor panic over, because I have home internet again! (The problem was just the bleedin' LAN-cable.)

    So without further ado, here are your screenies (a bit rough-and ready, but they do the job)...
    Spoiler The world as of Turn 286... :
    Gihas of the Lerins, 286 AD minimap.png
    Spoiler The Lerian homeland... :
    Gihas of the Lerins, 286 AD homeland.png
    Spoiler The various wars-in-progress :
    ...against the Naherran...
    Gihas of the Lerins, 286 AD NE front.png
    ...and the Lesegolans...
    Gihas of the Lerins, 286 AD NW front.png
    ...and the Berelliseg...
    Gihas of the Lerins, 286 AD SW front.png
    ...the capture of those last 2 towns (Mysia and Malgarre) (I think) being what won me the game on the coming interturn
    And the final savegame (re-saved just now, from the last autosave) if you want to have a poke around to see what I did with the place:
     

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  13. Nathiri

    Nathiri Commander

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    I updated the mod with some changes. I decided I probably should fix at least a few issues if I am going to keep this up here and recommend it to people :).

    -Cut Plague duration in half, from 10 turns to 5.
    -Reduced Max Plague Periods from 3 to 2.
    -Removed world unhappiness to the barracks, smithery, and feifa: replaced with 1 local unhappiness.
    -Removed Appearance and Disappearance ratios on resources.
    -Adjusted a couple settings in the Outpost city improvement.
    -Few other things I may have forgotten.
     
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  14. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    Hey, an update that looks like a response to some of my more insistent whinges ;) — cool! :thumbsup:

    Have I understood right that this patch just makes changes to the .biq, i.e. all I need to do is DL the (new?) .biq from your DropBox linky?

    Or have you also made changes in the base-files?
     
  15. Nathiri

    Nathiri Commander

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    I edited the civilopedia descriptions where needed, plus I just wanted 1 link for simplicity. But here:
     

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