There is a time and a place for building Great Library

[redeagler]

I am getting quite fed up with what appears to be a rather large percentage of Civ players who will absolutely go out of there way, every game and despite whatever the situation otherwise demands, to get the GL (I’m looking at you, Egypt players). An anecdote of something I experienced the other day.

I was playing a six-player Pangaea map as the Russians on quick speed. My starting terrain was almost entirely plains with river, and some bonus resources. Though not completely locked in, I quickly discovered a mountain range with few passageways, essentially providing a geographical barrier to the land that I would soon control (enough for four cities). Though I usually start out with liberty (I hold the philosophy that early expansion really does not harm your late-game advantage), considering the situation I decided instead to open the tradition tree and grow a tall empire.

I usually do not attempt to go GL because of my experiences with noobs rushing for it as if it was their entire raison d’être. Considering that I was on rivered plains, that I was going tall empire, my easily defendable geography, and my high production, it would be a good idea to get civil service to boost growth. I starting working on GL, and arranged my tech tree so that I would have access to civil service soon before completion. Since I had not yet built a settler, after opening the tradition tree I had also opened the liberty tree and received the settler. Hence, while building the GL my expansion would not be stunted.

...and then some Aztec player on the other side of the map built GL on turn 22 (yes, turn 22). Without even creating a second city, he jumped for mathematics and immediately starting working on Hanging Gardens. People surrounding him took advantage of this, expanding very near him in lieu of opposition from him. He then quit.

I had good reasons and conditions for building GL: Geographically defendable position, good production, advantageous to growth, etc. But when you sacrifice everything to get it, it hardly puts you ahead and only puts you behind for the entire game. If you don’t expand, your competing neighbours will expand against you and take the good territory. The free bottles received equivalent to the free tech (30-60 or w/e its worth) is petty compared to the bottles you will receive by having an additional city. Ditto for the 3+ bottles offered by the building itself, for an additional city with a population of three has the same effect. The free library gained can be built at the cost of 1gpt.

To the GL fanatics out there: Stop ing rushing for it. Stop playing as if it was OCC. The advantage you will receive by expanding reasonably early FAR surpasses any (very short term) advantage gained by this early wonder. The same applies for all early wonders. Every time I see an Egypt player wonder build from the start next to me (or any other Civ for that matter), all I encounter is unopposed expansion into their nearby unclaimed territory, and all I see is a wonderful city soon to be easily conquered.

 

[PhilBowles]

I am getting quite fed up with what appears to be a rather large percentage of Civ players who will absolutely go out of there way, every game and despite whatever the situation otherwise demands, to get the GL (I’m looking at you, Egypt players). An anecdote of something I experienced the other day.

If they're anything like me, they're probably Civ I and II veterans who do that instinctively...

Having said that, a free tech is never something to be sniffed at, particularly when it also increases your Great Scientist points (and hence the rate at which you get future free techs), whatever your civ. It's also an early Wonder on an essentially compulsory tech path, so it's one of the Wonders you always will be able to build fairly early in the game. Personally, I rarely go for writing as my first tech progression these days (how often do you have 250 gold early enough to warrant it?), but the ability to start churning out research agreements as soon as you have neighbours and spare cash is vital enough that it's always going to be a high priority tech early on. The Great Library is also one of the 'one-shot' wonders - you don't build it, you lose its major benefit even if you later capture it, which gives a sound reason for prioritising it over, say, the Mausoleum (which comes into its own later in the game when you'll have had a chance to capture it) or the Great Wall (although by its nature that is a difficult one to capture).

It's much the same reason I always go for Temple of Artemis - it will usually be the first Wonder I get access to, which alone makes it perhaps the most powerful early-game Wonder (especially on levels where early war is inevitable). I wouldn't necessarily prioritise it if I wasn't prioritising early Archery, however; for the long haul the Mausoleum is probably a better investment given how important gold is later in the game.

I had good reasons and conditions for building GL: Geographically defendable position, good production, advantageous to growth, etc. But when you sacrifice everything to get it, it hardly puts you ahead and only puts you behind for the entire game

.

Surely that's true of any rushed Wonder, whether it's the Great Library, Hanging Gardens or whatever? Like you, I'll usually only build any Wonder on one city if I go Liberty, and even then probably only the Temple (I usually play vs the AI, which in my experience will generally neglect the Oracle, so I tech to that late). I don't think that argues against going for the GL specifically as a high, if not top, priority Wonder (although as you note below, given the stage in the game where you have to produce the GL or lose it given the competition from others to do so, you'll be getting a rather low tech boost - which is another reason I leave it as late as I can while still having a chance of completing it).

Phil

 

[swmaniac]

Multiplayer is different, but at least in single player unless you're surrounded on all sides by warmongers; particularly on prince and below there is no reason to not go for it. What seems to be the issue is people forgetting you can't take advantage of the AI's utter inability to wage war on multiplayer. In single player if the AI settles near you, you can just kill them and puppet their city. In multiplayer unless you have a huge army in the mean time you aren't guaranteed that win.

Although I also have to wonder, what are those players doing? If you go liberty you can expand regardless by taking the free settler on your second policy. Your expansion is slowed but GL to Philosophy for the National College puts you in a good place beaker per turn wise.

 

[Tabarnak]

When i try to build the GL, that's because i know i can build it in 25 turns or less. I once built the GL at turn 22, which is pretty rare. You need perfect terrain and maybe a ruin.

The GL boost is nice, but not necessary.

 

[Camikaze]

I don't often go for the Great Library, because usually if I am going for a wonder, I'll get sucked in by the lure of Stonehenge or the Oracle. The GL can actually be a nice stepping stone to the NC if you get a GE early and have expanded. Rush it in your second or third city and that's one less library you have to build.

 

[PhilBowles]

I don't often go for the Great Library, because usually if I am going for a wonder, I'll get sucked in by the lure of Stonehenge or the Oracle. The GL can actually be a nice stepping stone to the NC if you get a GE early and have expanded. Rush it in your second or third city and that's one less library you have to build.

Sadly (since I'm aiming for culture victory) I missed both in my new game - I usually lose Stonehenge because it's such an early wonder that it runs into all the issues described in the first post, and if you don't produce it that early someone else gets there first - culture victory or no, when surrounded by psychotic AI civs, the Temple of Artemis always gets that 'wonder slot' (and aids growth to boot). And I was taken by surprise when an AI civ actually did go for the Oracle this time, getting it just as I was aiming to start it.

I did, however, get the Great Library this time...

 

[Ruler]

Pyramid and Stonehenge are definitely my favorite ones, only go for them if my capital is good in production otherwise I just choose rapid growth instead, yes, granary and water mill are better than any wonder. Both are very easy to get. NC and that National Colosseum wonders are something I build in every game.

 

[King of Prussia]

Pyramid and Stonehenge are definitely my favorite ones, only go for them if my capital is good in production otherwise I just choose rapid growth instead, yes, granary and water mill are better than any wonder. Both are very easy to get. NC and that National Colosseum wonders are something I build in every game.

Those 2 plus the pyramids are wonders I go for. 2 free workers, extra happiness and science are always welcomed.

 

[Teagen]

with great library you can get theocracy early on and use the liberty GP for the hagia sophia earlier

GL > liberty tree > theocracy > hagia sophia

that's quite the combination really...very strong start.

 

[bcaiko]

Sounds like the OP had a smart plan and a legitimate need for the Great Library, as well as a fair gripe. But the there is another reason to build wonders: to make sure other player don't get them. While the GL may not have done the Aztecs a ton of good, it would have certainly helped the OP to a great extent, which could have been very bad for the Aztecs down the road.

Sometimes (not always), blunting your opponent is worth sacrificing some growth on your own part. Even this forum's England War Academy article, for instance, says England should build the Great Lighthouse not because they need it, but to prevent other Civs from obtaining it. That can be a worthy strategy when applied smartly.

 

[ense7en]

It's a pretty superb early wonder in single player.

I imagine military is a much bigger focus in MP early on, but i can still see why people would go for it.

 

[joncnunn]

Acquiring a wonder against Humans on turn 22 and starting another one right away???
Practically screams out MP newbie.

 

[RobinsonUK]

When I'm playing AI on Prince, I usually build all 27 wonders .

 

[Mesix]

with great library you can get theocracy early on and use the liberty GP for the hagia sophia earlier

GL > liberty tree > theocracy > hagia sophia

that's quite the combination really...very strong start.

I prefer to get Civil Service over Theocracy. Civil Service from the GL provides early Pikemen (almost as strong as Swordsmen without any resource requirement) and also extra growth (river farms produce +1 ). The extra growth translates into extra since higher populations research better. The extra growth also translates into extra since higher production tiles can be worked.

 

[PhilBowles]

When I'm playing AI on Prince, I usually build all 27 wonders .

I wish the 'wonderful world' achievement had a drop down so that you could see which wonders you still have to complete in a game...

 

[King of Prussia]

I have done 2 achievments several times and still haven't got them yet. Wonderwall where you build 3 wonders in a city and Reverse Engineers where you capture 3 wonders in a city.

 

[tommynt]

to op:
just stop playing random noobs

if u think u can stand the callange join league:
www.civplayers.com

Moderator Action: You really could be a bit more friendly.

 

[bcaiko]

to op:
just stop playing random noobs

if u think u can stand the callange join league:
www.civplayers.com

Without the condescension above, I'd also suggest to the original poster that s/he join a group like "No Quitters" (if s/he hasn't already). I'd assume those games are less likely to have random players who might irritate him/her.

 

[chazzycat]

OP, I agree with your premise even in single player, at least on immortal. It shouldn't be the cookie cutter opening build. I find myself much better off with some fast expansion instead of wonder building in a lot of situations.

 

[PhilBowles]

It's a pretty superb early wonder in single player.

I imagine military is a much bigger focus in MP early on, but i can still see why people would go for it.

On the couple of occasions I've played multiplayer I haven't Wonder-rushed, and have been beaten to almost every Wonder by players who do. It seems more common among humans than vs AI.

By contrast, this group plays so peacefully that the only combat tends to be against barbarians.