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This is not strategy game

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by kornelm1978, Oct 29, 2016.

  1. kornelm1978

    kornelm1978 Warlord

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    But sometimes middlegrund is the best option. We know that Adrian is not a good name and neither Rudolf. So maybe Peter will work:). I believe we both agree tat stack of doom was not greatest, but can you expain me how you can we make above strategies of lets say naval landings with 1upt? They should be viable, but they are not, even in multiplayer. Not because of bad AI (which is bad anywhay), but not effective becasue of that design. 5 units landing on one tile would be a force pretty hard to kill, able to advnce or at least distract other units. Landing of 5 units with 1 upt may mean spread across lets say 8-10 tiles of shore (clifs, mountains, city, 2 other units). Kiled easily. Always.
     
  2. kornelm1978

    kornelm1978 Warlord

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    I did not expect never complexity of Europa Universalis. I expected fun game, easy to learn (not the case of EU IV), but hard to master. Easier rules but still demanding gameply. That's what I had in civ 4, and thanks to modders (thank you!!!) somehow in 5. I just said that there are nice ideas which can be implemented in simplier way in civ (or using experiences from previous civs, and modders), not spoling it's atmospere and climate. And that is called progress, learning on experience and from others. Ironically game on progress of civilization is not caring about progress. But maybe you are right, this is arcade game... not for me anymore.
     
  3. Menzies

    Menzies Menzies

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    Except Peter isn't middle ground, Peter is a third, completely unrelated option. This would be akin to coming up with an entirely different system to 1UPT or stacks of doom, rather than picking the average of them.

    Naval landings historically do suffer massive casualties unless backed by massive naval supremacy and or air supremacy. You can achieve Naval landings in the game, but they require a lot of planning from what I can tell. Like in Civ V though the idea remains the same, have a well supported landing party, get control of the water around an area, and take control. It shouldn't be easy to land an attack force, if anything that was another issue with 1UPT.
     
  4. Mustakrakish

    Mustakrakish In 'Node' We Trust

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    If I could mod, I'd make a mod that I'd call "My Little Baby SoD" (thanks someone in this thread for the "baby" part).

    In that mod you shall be able to stack up to 5 melee & cavalry units. You shall not stack ranged units, I dislike how ranged dominates V and VI. However, the more units on a tile, the more damage is dealt to that tile by ranged (including air). Say base attack of an archer would be 30dmg, 37dmg when 2 units, 44dmg to 3, 51dmg to 4 and 60dmg (double) to full stack. The damage will spread more or less equally among the stack (60dmg that is, not 60dmg x 5).
     
  5. TheXMassTeam

    TheXMassTeam Chieftain

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    Is it really 1 upt? With the merging of units and the support units it's more 1 souttsuptps no? ( stack of up to three same units per tile plus support)
     
  6. kornelm1978

    kornelm1978 Warlord

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    All extreme solutions are always bad. And the only solution between them always lies in between, where it is, it's to be discovered (and there is even trial of that with corpses, but thats waste of units). When you think of naval landings you gave the historical example of WWII. Naval supremacy in simplified way is there (if there is more foe naval units its there). Air supremacy (in simplified way) is also there, undefended units embarked will be easily killed by bombers. So if you imagine Normandy landing in CIV 5/6 reality, with your air and naval supremacy, it's still doe not work. But imagine different landing - Napoleon gathers the army and English are coming to support, landing on friendly teriroty. You are the England leader and you are going to fight Napoleon to support your friend in other continent. Before you land effecively it would take ages, becasue your ally has the units all the way around the shore (thanks to 1 upt), cities and clifs. Moreover you can embark just limited number of units per turn because of Clifs of Dover natural wonder, where u can not load. And additionally when you finally land, you will be mixed in the friends capret:). Thus again notpossbile with 1 upt. More possible with 5 upt if you want to have the number.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2016
  7. kornelm1978

    kornelm1978 Warlord

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    Another good idea, which at least should be explored on the design level.
     
  8. kornelm1978

    kornelm1978 Warlord

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    I believe they could go much furhter with that. You are loosing three units to have one a little bit more strong, but which can not be promoted. It's a waste, but I hope that they will develop the idea.
     
  9. Haggbart

    Haggbart King

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    To put it very simple: The more units the AI needs to shuffle about, the more it struggles. The stack of doom was boring, but the AI needs tools to handle 1UPT. Combat bonuses to higher dif levels is a great change. Would be even better if the AI actually use the corps/army-mechanics and upgrade its units. So I think there are some good ideas there, however the AI needs to use them right.
     
  10. TehJumpingJawa

    TehJumpingJawa Warlord

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    Oh come now, you surely aren't going to make me list all the other design changes that were made to facilitate 1UPT.
     
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  11. Menzies

    Menzies Menzies

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    What kind of half hearted nonsense is this? Define what an extreme solution is, because in this case neither are extreme solutions. We have a failed solution that was binned in stacks of doom, and a newer solution that's worked well with the odd issue in 1UPT. Neither are extreme, and going with calling them as such as a starting point is just odd.

    I gave no example of a time period, I tried to be general.

    Yes, that was the implication of what I was saying. 1UPT actually works quite well for replicating the difficulty in naval landings, while keeping the importance of superiority in the sea, and when the time comes, the air.

    Done it plenty of times. A foe on their knees after losses elsewhere, air superiority resorted, and control of the waves mixed with a good bit of surprise.

    That's a lovely strawman, have you given it a name?

    Part of the idea of 1UPT is that it's not meant to end up as carpets, and the new systems of combining like units into corps and armies are meant to offer a method of doing this even later (18 units become 6 in later eras). Such scenarios are perfectly possible, and in fact, with friendly territory involved, it's actually easier.

    Well it would be fairly stupid to have changed a central part of the game and not make other adjustments to balance it. Can you name which changes that were made for 1UPT that you don't like, and why you don't like them?
     
  12. kornelm1978

    kornelm1978 Warlord

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    Suprise the AI? There is no AI which can be suppried, behaviour is still programed, thus it can not be tricked today.

    But I can see that you are admiting that corpse is good opition. And I believe this is something more than 1 upt. It's a step in good direction, but it should go furhter and be cheaper and more accesible for player (resigning from 3 to get one, just a little stronger?). And I'd love to see less units more corpses. I'd love to see the map where stong army is 10 strong units.
     
  13. Menzies

    Menzies Menzies

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    I don't really see it as an admission to suggest that the corps and armies are a good idea. They can only combine like units, and does so permanently with a trade off involved. The advantage in 1UPT is making it so armies need to have individual components that can be targeted, and make interesting choices for how to set up and defend based on the setting, the corps and armies don't impact that.

    By the sounds of it you just want big numbers of units.
     
  14. Fippy

    Fippy Mycro Junkie Queen

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    You should try thinking 1 step further..
    SoD was only 1 option. They are vulnarable to colleteral damage from siege, and often in Civ4 or earlier it's still better to make several stacks.

    So they gave you strategic options, mass your forces or split them.
    They made AIs dangerous (ever got killed by Civ4 deity AI early?).
    They made everything richer on strategy just cos they existed, you had *choices*.
    Now there are none, always the same endless one by one unit moving.
    So yep, great improvement /yawn
     
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  15. TheXMassTeam

    TheXMassTeam Chieftain

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    Ho, no promotion for merged units? I didn't notice that, but I play only one very peaceful game, and I start my first war on turn 750 (one more turn syndrome). Was thinking that if they gain xp they'll get promoted sometimes.
    Humm, so I guess merging non fully promoted units (with newbies one) is a vaste of resources yes.
     
  16. Krajzen

    Krajzen Deity

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    tl;dr "Objectively speaking this is not strategy game according to my personal preferences, as well as arbitrary critierias based equally on *strawman* and *no true scotsman* fallacies" ;)

    I mean, of course you are free to discuss and criticize the game, I just smile upon seeing similar threads on strategy gaming forums.
     
  17. LMT

    LMT Warlord

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    What is the problem is with 1 upt? I've been playing since Civ 2 and 1 upt has been the best change in the entire series. You actually need to plan a battle/war instead of massing troops on a single tile or two. Did stacks of doom required much strategy? Yes, in terms of planning resources to build them, but not so much in employing them.

    IMHO, 1 upt requires more strategy, not less.
     
  18. Kwami

    Kwami Emperor

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    Maybe someone should make a mod that puts 10 little soldiers into a unit instead of four. Then, he could have his big armies and 1UPT at the same time. :)
     
  19. Menzies

    Menzies Menzies

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    Ah yes, that was go level thinking required. I remember hours of planning, several notepads of paper, and hiring four emeritus professors from the local university to help me plan out whether I'd split my stack of doom, combine it, or just made sure I had it at the right balance and did it the same way as the other 400 games I played.
     
  20. Lord Shadow

    Lord Shadow General

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    SoD's literally only advantage was that it was simpler for the AI to understand. Not a minor advantage, but just one.

    Any claim that it was somehow a deep or complex system, and that the AI used it with any degree of competence other than sheer brute force is pure, rose-tinted nonsense at best, disingenuous at worst.
     

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