This proves that there are eras in the game!!!

[Helmling]

"Quick: come up with a sub-Saharan African Great Wonder of the Modern Age."

The basilika in of Yamoussoukro, capital of the Ivory Coast. It is the worlds largest Christian Church.

Here is a link comparing to the Roman basilika.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v203/pooka1011/YAMOUSSOUKRO.jpg

Cool! I'd never heard of that!

Oh wait, the fact that I'd never heard of it kind of makes that guy's point...sorry.

Actually, both sides have points. Yes, the "West" has dominated since the Renaissance.

However, as this game is about alternative history, should it include something so wholly biased as an era named after the "rebirth" of European culture?

What would trully be interesting is if the game could model the rise and fall of civilizations...and then have rebirths. None of the previous Civs could. When a Civ was down, they were out. There was precious little room for come-backs in Civ 1, 2 or 3.

 

[Skirmisher]

Ok how about this. In 2050 the UN has calculated that Africa will have 2 billion inhabitants. Seing as Europe is actually going to lose population in the same period they must be doing something right down there in deep dark uncivilised Africa.

Another African Wonder. The Djenne Mosque, made entirely of mud and has to be repaired continously.

http://www.playahata.com/images/otherpics/djenne2.jpg

 

[Lucky The Fox]

Ok how about this. In 2050 the UN has calculated that Africa will have 2 billion inhabitants. Seing as Europe is actually going to lose population in the same period they must be doing something right down there in deep dark uncivilised Africa.

Oh yes, let's have two new modern wonders. Overpopulation and hunger. Doubles birthrate, lowers happiness.

 

[Skirmisher]

No, lets have the "the pill" wonder, halves population growth but increases happiness and productivity. The abortion clinic city improvement does the same, but without any happiness bonus. Add the "test tube baby" wonder to increase population growth, again. Or the fertility clinic city improvement to do the same but at a cost.

 

[Vael]

Hmmm, I see someone is working on the "Off Topic and Asking for a Mod Warning" wonder.

 

[Martinus]

It'd be kind of prejudice to name an era 'reinaisance era' since that only happened in Western Europe...

What else do you prefer?

Ancient era, Medieval era, Renaissance era, Exploration era and Industrial era are all European concepts (the last one also including America). Other than the modern era, there are no uniform eras that would apply universally across the globe (and you could also argue that the "modern era" hardly applies to modern day Ethiopia, as well).

You could of course come up with names from other cultures, such as Chinese ("You have entered the Ming Era", "You have entered the Era of Isolation"), but those would be completely impossible to understand and relate to, to 95% of players.

 

[Martinus]

"Quick: come up with a sub-Saharan African Great Wonder of the Modern Age."

The basilika in of Yamoussoukro, capital of the Ivory Coast. It is the worlds largest Christian Church.

Here is a link comparing to the Roman basilika.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v203/pooka1011/YAMOUSSOUKRO.jpg

Sorry, but the concept of the "biggest church" being a world wonder kinda died out around 17th century. I am sure someone today could build pyramids that are bigger than those of Egypt, but that does not mean they would become automatically wonders of the world. In this era, you need more than a load of bricks to have a wonder. (Unless you count it as an example of "wondrous" waste of money and resources in a poor, developing country).

It is the same with people. When you are in the first grade, good marks go to people who have neatest notebooks and clean school uniforms - but if a sloppy and somewhat ******** kid finally gets his act together by the time the rest of his colleagues is already writing doctorates at the college, having a neat notebook and clean school uniform will not get him far.

 

[Skirmisher]

In this era, you need more than a load of bricks to have a wonder. (Unless you count it as an example of "wondrous" waste of money and resources in a poor, developing country).

The cost of the basilica doubled the national debt of Côte d'Ivoire. It is constructed with marble imported from Italy and is furnished with 7000 square meters of contemporary stained glass from France.

Certainly if the Kremlin and Verseilles are great wonders why not this basilika?
But enough of this 'off topic' from me.

 

[Sark6354201]

The cost of the basilica doubled the national debt of Côte d'Ivoire. It is constructed with marble imported from Italy and is furnished with 7000 square meters of contemporary stained glass from France.

Certainly if the Kremlin and Verseilles are great wonders why not this basilika?
But enough of this 'off topic' from me.

The Kremlin and Verseilles are central buildings/symbols for Russia and France, both of which are very influential nations in world history.

You can't make the same argument for the Basilika.

As far as eras go...

I thought the era concept for Civ3 was inadequate. Especially how in the ancient era horseback riding was required to advance. What? What if you have no horses in your land? Why would you need to learn to ride horses to advance to higher technology etc.

It was/is especially ridicolous when you consider the Maya, Aztec, and Inca never used horses in the development of their empires.

Also technologies like Feudalism, which is more a concept than a 'technology' somwhat spoil the spirit of the game IMO. One could argue Feudalism being a outgrowth for a need for protection that the collapse of the Roman empire took away. I'm not expert on Feudalism, but the point I'm trying to make still stands, and that is in a game live Civ, where you might not have a dark age, why should there be technology reflecting the occurance of one?

Ideally, the technologies available to you should not be set in stone or reflect a linear progression in world history, but rather you should be able to take multiple paths down the tech tree depending on your circumstances. If your Civ has been ravaged by Barbarians and threatened by hostile neighbors, you could then 'research' Feudalism so that you can respond to the situation appropiatly.

But a tech like that shouldn't be required...

 

[DragonRunner]

You definitely could make that argument. I don't know enough about the bascillica to comment, but why wouldn't it be a central part of Cote d'Ivoire?
Regarding eras, does this mean that a civ could completely neglect certain aspects of the tech tree and focus on, say, military techs only?

 

[EdCase]

This should clear it up...it is after all only your own Eurocentric viewpoint that automatically links it to the one period in time.

Renaissance

(rn-säns, -zäns, rn-säns, -zäns, r-nsns)
n.
1. A rebirth or revival.
2. Renaissance
a. The humanistic revival of classical art, architecture, literature, and learning that originated in Italy in the 14th century and later spread throughout Europe.
b. The period of this revival, roughly the 14th through the 16th century, marking the transition from medieval to modern times.
3. often Renaissance
a. A revival of intellectual or artistic achievement and vigor: the Celtic Renaissance.
b. The period of such a revival.

adj. Renaissance
1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of the Renaissance or its artistic and intellectual works and styles.
2. Of or being the style of architecture and decoration, based on classical models, that originated in Italy in the 15th century and continued throughout Europe up to the end of the 16th century.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[French, from Old French, from renaistre, to be born again, from Vulgar Latin *renscere, from Latin rensc : re-, re- + nsc, to be born; see gen- in Indo-European roots.]

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2003. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

 

[AKauhanen]

The cost of the basilica doubled the national debt of Côte d'Ivoire. It is constructed with marble imported from Italy and is furnished with 7000 square meters of contemporary stained glass from France.

Certainly if the Kremlin and Versailles are great wonders why not this basilika?
But enough of this 'off topic' from me.

Well, I sure am happy our foreign aid is being intelligently used, but you do make a good point. Why should the Kremlin and Versailles be considered "Great" Wonders ? They are not. I always look at the actual benefit of a building or institution. The actual benefit Versailles brought to the monarch of France was that he had the lords and nobles centralized and battling among themselves over his favor. The bunch of bricks and glass didn't give any benefit for the monarch, but the actual benefit the monarch gained from Versailles in centralizing power was enormous.

Kremlin was (when finished and in it's prime) a Fortress Citadel what was almost impossible to conquer (even by a Mongol Horde). Now the Kremlin has become obsolete as a military fortress. Now it serves only as a tourist attraction like the Versailles.

To be fair. Even as Versailles centralized power to the absolute monarch of France the people of France became more and more unhappy of the lavish life style the nobles and royalty in Versailles. So the Versailles in my opinion should have a increasing negative effect in happiness in the population. It could be said that finally the lavish life style of Versailles brought about the French revolution. Whereas the lavish Versailles decreased the happiness of the common people in France, the Kremlin could be said decreased the unhappiness at least somewhat in Moscow.

The actual benefit from the Basilika I don't know. Does it make the people happy that national money is being used this way ? Does it make European nations give more money ? Does it serve as a fortress ? Does it centralize power ? Does it create a revolution and quickly enable a new better leadership and form of government ? Will it start a age of renaissance in Africa ? I sure hope so. Otherwise it has been a colossal waste of money.

 

[Sark6354201]

This should clear it up...it is after all only your own Eurocentric viewpoint that automatically links it to the one period in time.

Renaissance

(rn-säns, -zäns, rn-säns, -zäns, r-nsns)
n.
1. A rebirth or revival.
2. Renaissance
a. The humanistic revival of classical art, architecture, literature, and learning that originated in Italy in the 14th century and later spread throughout Europe.
b. The period of this revival, roughly the 14th through the 16th century, marking the transition from medieval to modern times.
3. often Renaissance
a. A revival of intellectual or artistic achievement and vigor: the Celtic Renaissance.
b. The period of such a revival.

adj. Renaissance
1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of the Renaissance or its artistic and intellectual works and styles.
2. Of or being the style of architecture and decoration, based on classical models, that originated in Italy in the 15th century and continued throughout Europe up to the end of the 16th century.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[French, from Old French, from renaistre, to be born again, from Vulgar Latin *renscere, from Latin rensc : re-, re- + nsc, to be born; see gen- in Indo-European roots.]

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2003. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

The real question is, a rebirth or revival of what? In world history, a revival of Greco-Roman sciences, texts etc. as well a interest in science and the arts.

But how does this universally apply to Civ? If my Civ has been steadily progressing for hundreds of years without major wars or famines, why should I have a period of 'rebirth'. Rebirth of what?

I know I'm being nitpicky... but hey its fun

 

[Skirmisher]

Why should the Kremlin and Versailles be considered "Great" Wonders ?

There is a list of what the UN considers to be great cultural achievements. It has an interactive map as well.

http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/?search=&search_by_country=&type=cultural&region=&order=

The process is democratic in the representative manner, memberstates elect a 29 member commitee which votes on nominations of the member countries. The whole process is decided by a set of guidelines. (edit: couldn't figure out who is on the commitee now, since the link was broken.)

http://whc.unesco.org/opgulist.htm

 

[AKauhanen]

There is a list of what the UN considers to be great cultural achievements. It has an interactive map as well.

http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/?search=&search_by_country=&type=cultural&region=&order=

The process is democratic in the representative manner, memberstates elect a 29 member commitee which votes on nominations of the member countries. The whole process is decided by a set of guidelines. (edit: couldn't figure out who is on the commitee now, since the link was broken.)

http://whc.unesco.org/opgulist.htm

Well, I think that in this list they only list buildings what have cultural/historical value and don't even try to call these buildings "great wonders". I do agree that these buildings must be protected, but they are still not great wonders.

"The World Heritage List includes 812 properties forming part of the cultural and natural heritage which the World Heritage Committee considers as having outstanding universal value.

These include 628 cultural, 160 natural and 24 mixed properties in 137 States Parties."

 

[Tommy1234567890]

fine fine...

crap all over my theory

mumbmbling swear words

 

[CivFan91]

We're not "crapping" on your theory. But you did spark an intersting discussion. If it makes you feel any better, seeing that pic made me think there were scientific eras as well. (Which, technically, there are. They just don't appear that way.)

 

[Volstag]

It'd be kind of prejudice to name an era 'reinaisance era' since that only happened in Western Europe...

Yeah, and it would be ahistorical to have it appear at any time other than the late 14th century, or from a non-western European country. I say we get rid of it all together, or rename it as the "Late Holocene" or the "Early Modern Period" -- since everyone is familar with those terms.

In all seriousness, what do you propose they call it?

-V

 

[Volstag]

How can ayone have a problem with the term "Renaissance", but no problem with the Babylonians lasting until 2014 A.D., or America appearing in 4000 B.C. It's like complaining that your microwave doesn't work when your house is on fire.

 

[joethreeblah]

Yeah, and it would be ahistorical to have it appear at any time other than the late 14th century, or from a non-western European country. I say we get rid of it all together, or rename it as the "Late Holocene" or the "Early Modern Period" -- since everyone is familar with those terms.

In all seriousness, what do you propose they call it?

-V

I always play the game blindfolded until I invent Computers