Yeah, now that Hell is spreading all over the place, the Cult seems wimpy by comparison. It barely spreads at all, compared to the Veil... especially with Hyborem rampaging around. There should definitely be a unit that can spread the Cult... and possibly up it's natural spread rate a bit, too. As is, one could almost forget it's there, compared to the big religions... it really needs more screen time to compete.
Thoughts on Cult of the Dragon?
- Thread starter Bad Player
- Start date
kenken244
Grammar Nazi
i agree with being able to produce diciples for cotd and prehaps increasing the rate of spread with the wyrmhold but to make it annoying, in adittion to its current effects it should be theocracy-proof and when it spreads to a non kurioite or sheiam city it removes all other religions present and increases matenence and at random periods it will go into revolt
Red Boxer
Prince
Is it possible to have the cult spread culture of the owning civ? So maybe cities would get overturned. This would be inaddition to losing a bit of culture... but it might make the culture of the CotD civ too much.
I still hope to see some form of adolescent dragons involved in the cult mechanics. I think the rituals and worshiping of the cultists would occasionally summon a little wyrm, whelp, or drake. Maybe it could be a random event and if they were born in a Cult civilization they could get control of it, or somehow capture it, and if it were in a non cult civilization it could be a barb unit that terrorizes the countryside and requires slaying.
Bad Player
Deity
Maybe the more CotD cities the higher the chance of that happening Thonnas?
Having said that Kael doesn't want more dragons in the game because it would ruin the coolness of the 3 already there (I tend to agree with this I think).
Having said that Kael doesn't want more dragons in the game because it would ruin the coolness of the 3 already there (I tend to agree with this I think).
Gamestation
Introducing Servo
- Joined
- May 24, 2006
- Messages
- 551
Time to revive this thread now that we know the Cult of the Dragon is being threatened for removal.
Here's an idea I would like to throw in:
- Founded by Awaken the Ancients tech which requires Way of the Wise or Way of the Wicked.
- Cult of the Dragon takes away 3 base culture using the culture multipliers as well so that an obelisk with a temple will still be unable to do anything meaningful.
- Sheaim and Kuriotates recieve a free improvement in every city they own with the Cult of the Dragon:
- Sheaim get dragon altars that give 3 base culture to counter the loss caused by the Cult of the Dragon religion and living units built in the city have a chance of getting the dragon mutant promotion (I'll explain what I mean later).
- Kuriotates get dragon monuments that give 3 base culture, +1 happiness, +1 health, +5% commerce, gold, and research.
- Wyrmhold gives a free obelisk (or obelisk replacement) in every city of the owning player as well as the chaos mana, specialist slots, culture, great person points, and Cult of the Dragon spread increase currently in.
icantcmyeye
Peace Through Power
CotD seems like it would be very useful to a Balseraph player
Twilight Falls
Chieftain
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2007
- Messages
- 23
I have an idea: Every player who owns a Dragon and/or the Holy City (of the CotD) gets spy-level access to every city with the Cult of the Dragon. This would represent the cultish, underground nature of the Cult and would make it worth Inquisitioning the city.
Another option would be to allow the CotD Holy City (with the Wyrmhold) to build the above-mentioned disciple that could cross into rival territory and spread the CotD.
Another option would be to allow the CotD Holy City (with the Wyrmhold) to build the above-mentioned disciple that could cross into rival territory and spread the CotD.
make dragons convert nearby cities to cotd just by roaring... otherwise your most likely just spreading a semi useful religion to a city you just took
(and dragons got hit with the nerf stick too)
additionally-loki doesn't really do anything other than annoy humans and distract ai's, maybe he should have some wicked good mechanic instead? like converting the unit that beats him, or having 50/50 odds with immortality.
lawbringers could be changed to loyal bodyguards
(1 str+1 holy, affinity for law mana, guardsmen when defending spellcasters)
(and dragons got hit with the nerf stick too)
additionally-loki doesn't really do anything other than annoy humans and distract ai's, maybe he should have some wicked good mechanic instead? like converting the unit that beats him, or having 50/50 odds with immortality.
lawbringers could be changed to loyal bodyguards
(1 str+1 holy, affinity for law mana, guardsmen when defending spellcasters)
Blakmane
Prince
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2007
- Messages
- 447
I think, in general terms making cotd more useful:
1. It needs a unique mechanic, that actually works. The loss of culture and % chance of conversion were unique, but they just weren't powerful enough. This is the main problem with Cotd atm- it's just totally useless
2. There needs to be some way to actively spread it (even if you aren't a cotd civ. that way you can use it against your enemies).
3. It needs to either not count towards a religious victory, or stack cumulatively with the state religion of the holy city owner. This is the reason that I never ever found CotD in my games- I almost always win through religious victory and if you have cotd it makes this impossible
It would be a really great shame to see Cotd go. It is one of my favourite religions, and the idea of 'cults' is really awesome. A lot of the dragon flavour would be lost if Cotd was scrapped.
1. It needs a unique mechanic, that actually works. The loss of culture and % chance of conversion were unique, but they just weren't powerful enough. This is the main problem with Cotd atm- it's just totally useless
2. There needs to be some way to actively spread it (even if you aren't a cotd civ. that way you can use it against your enemies).
3. It needs to either not count towards a religious victory, or stack cumulatively with the state religion of the holy city owner. This is the reason that I never ever found CotD in my games- I almost always win through religious victory and if you have cotd it makes this impossible
It would be a really great shame to see Cotd go. It is one of my favourite religions, and the idea of 'cults' is really awesome. A lot of the dragon flavour would be lost if Cotd was scrapped.
50C107061CA7
Chieftain
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2007
- Messages
- 34
It would be nice to see minor religions like CotD stay in the game. I feel that they should be more of a foil to players though, and less of "real" religions (i.e., religions players freely adopt throughout the course of the game).
I always thought it would be natural, for example, that players adopting OO would have to eventually deal with cults opposing the oppression of the Overlords. A Cult of Danalin (or Cult of the Dreamer--although "COD" would be an amusing acronym for a water god) would fight to spread the truth of Danalin's nightmarish situation & make life hard in cities with the OO religion. Maybe double the production cost of OO buildings and units where the cult is present.
Now that I think about it, Cult of the Dragon is not a reaction to a religion, but an event: the (re)emergence of dragons in the world. Maybe its establishment should be in the city that hosts Acheron's return; let the dragon itself be the living embodiment of the holy city (granting the appropriate bonuses). This means CotD would always be founded in a barbarian city. Once spread to player cities, allow either dragonslayers (open up the promotion to most, if not all, player civs) or Awaken the Ancients (fight dragonfire with dragonfire) as a response to the growing threat of CotD. In any case, Acheron needs to be a large enough threat to necessitate a player spending his precious resources to defeat him. CotD has to be more than just an annoyance to justify it staying in the game.
I always thought it would be natural, for example, that players adopting OO would have to eventually deal with cults opposing the oppression of the Overlords. A Cult of Danalin (or Cult of the Dreamer--although "COD" would be an amusing acronym for a water god) would fight to spread the truth of Danalin's nightmarish situation & make life hard in cities with the OO religion. Maybe double the production cost of OO buildings and units where the cult is present.
Now that I think about it, Cult of the Dragon is not a reaction to a religion, but an event: the (re)emergence of dragons in the world. Maybe its establishment should be in the city that hosts Acheron's return; let the dragon itself be the living embodiment of the holy city (granting the appropriate bonuses). This means CotD would always be founded in a barbarian city. Once spread to player cities, allow either dragonslayers (open up the promotion to most, if not all, player civs) or Awaken the Ancients (fight dragonfire with dragonfire) as a response to the growing threat of CotD. In any case, Acheron needs to be a large enough threat to necessitate a player spending his precious resources to defeat him. CotD has to be more than just an annoyance to justify it staying in the game.
A couple of thoughts:
(1) Why not make Acheron's city the holy city for the COTD? That way the cult gets founded early, and the cultural effects are far more of a nuisance.
(2) I'd like the Dragons available sooner. Why not make them have several sizes, and get bigger as they grow up? You could put tech and level restrictions on the sizes. This would make the Dragons a sort of "Evergreen" hero, in that they'd keep pace with the increasing power levels. If they die, you could build another, but you'd have to start from dragonette again.
Dragonette : STR 5 @ Awaken the Ancients
Juvenile : STR 10
Adult : STR 15
Ancient : STR 20
... It might make sense to have the dragons cost a lot too, as they need a LOT of feeding.
(1) Why not make Acheron's city the holy city for the COTD? That way the cult gets founded early, and the cultural effects are far more of a nuisance.
(2) I'd like the Dragons available sooner. Why not make them have several sizes, and get bigger as they grow up? You could put tech and level restrictions on the sizes. This would make the Dragons a sort of "Evergreen" hero, in that they'd keep pace with the increasing power levels. If they die, you could build another, but you'd have to start from dragonette again.
Dragonette : STR 5 @ Awaken the Ancients
Juvenile : STR 10
Adult : STR 15
Ancient : STR 20
... It might make sense to have the dragons cost a lot too, as they need a LOT of feeding.
kenken244
Grammar Nazi
maybe have every city that builds a dragon be a holycity so that means that the more dragons that have been in the world the faster it spreads
Rex rgis of Ter
Me I'm a Creator
I remeber reading somewhere that the dragons should get 1 xp for every city with CotD. This would give you a reason to spread it, as well as one for your enemies to purge it. This would be an interesting function, imagine your dragon when you win religous victory with it....
Imagine your dragon after one hundred turns of killing one high level power house unit after another.
Dragons don't exactly have an xp shortage, they have an opponent shortage. If you get the dragon as sheaim or the kuriotates, you're way past ending the game. It comes so late that you've probably already won by a mile anyways, and then you can start killing just about everything your opponents have at 100% odds without even using spells to damage them first.
The problem with the cult is it's not useful beyond the dragon. Earlier, it was founded sooner, spread around, nuked some culture production, made the founding city basically impossible to conquer, and let you build that dragon later. Once in a blue moon it would flip an enemy unit to your side, I never had it happen. With it being founded on building the dragon, it's just that much more unimportant. It never really has any bearing on the game as a religion, there are no religious units. The dragon itself in no way needs any help gaining experience, it's a game ender unto itself without any help at all if you can avoid getting mobbed bad.
Dragons don't exactly have an xp shortage, they have an opponent shortage. If you get the dragon as sheaim or the kuriotates, you're way past ending the game. It comes so late that you've probably already won by a mile anyways, and then you can start killing just about everything your opponents have at 100% odds without even using spells to damage them first.
The problem with the cult is it's not useful beyond the dragon. Earlier, it was founded sooner, spread around, nuked some culture production, made the founding city basically impossible to conquer, and let you build that dragon later. Once in a blue moon it would flip an enemy unit to your side, I never had it happen. With it being founded on building the dragon, it's just that much more unimportant. It never really has any bearing on the game as a religion, there are no religious units. The dragon itself in no way needs any help gaining experience, it's a game ender unto itself without any help at all if you can avoid getting mobbed bad.
Rex rgis of Ter
Me I'm a Creator
I really don't think the CotD should stay. It isn't poerful enough, and noobs can't figure out how to found it. I think it should be replaced by another religion. Maybe another pure neutral like leaves, since theres 2 evilish and 2 goodish already. Just my opinion.
Rex rgis of Ter
Me I'm a Creator
Now that espionage has been implemented in BtS, the CotD could provide Espionage points. This represents the shady cult side of it, and is quite good. Perhaps they could sabatoge in non- Kurio/sheiam cities' espionage, destroying their points, while benefitting Kurio/sheiam cities.
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
Thats good, but I think it would be much better for a cult of Esus. We could see more cults being added in Shadow, using the cooperation mechanic.
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