Thoughts on mods

tdb

Warlord
Joined
Nov 12, 2005
Messages
205
Location
Finland
One thing about mods that irritates me is that most of them are so large. There are loads of mods, all of which add new civilizations, units, resources and whatnot. Most of the time I would like to get only one or two things out of a big mod. For example, I'd like to have the additional resources from GreenMod (minus ancient temple), without any extra units or other tweaks. There's a thread whose author claims to have done this, but for some reason he's missing tea, sulphur and ancient temple and has added cannabis.

My proposal for a solution is quite straightforward: split all mods into their basic building blocks. Even to the level of having a separate mod for each new resource and unit. The new civilization mods are already doing this pretty well - each one only contains that civilization and nothing else (the civ and UU being bundled is okay).

With the help of my mod combiner program (see sig), it's very easy to combine these mini-mods into larger ones. When I get mod dependencies implemented, it'll also be possible to create one "virtual" mod, which doesn't add anything in itself but depends on all components in a certain mod pack.


Another thing I've noted is that when old mods are made "1.61 compatible", they're still based on an old version of the game. For example, somewhere between 1.09 and 1.61, the iLimitedWarPowerRatio of almost all leaders was increased by 10. When I create difference files from supposedly 1.61 compatible mods adding new civilizations, I get loads of reports about "changes" to this property as a result of the mod still having the 1.09 file. There are several other cases like this.

The solution for this would be that mod makers would keep their work in a difference format in one way or another. My program does not yet have any aditing capabilities, but the upcoming version 0.4 will feature a very simple text editor. Since my program produces a single difference file per mod, those files could also be used for distributing the mods.


I understand if mod makers will want to wait a bit for my program to mature a bit (version 1.0 is not too far), but please give these things some thought, and share your thoughts with me.
 
tdb said:
One thing about mods that irritates me is that most of them are so large.
Can you please provide us with what your definition of "large"? When you refer to mods are you talking about the mods in the "Civ4 - Modpacks" subforum or "Civ4 - Mod Components" subforum?

tdb said:
There are loads of mods, all of which add new civilizations, units, resources and whatnot. Most of the time I would like to get only one or two things out of a big mod. For example, I'd like to have the additional resources from GreenMod (minus ancient temple), without any extra units or other tweaks. There's a thread whose author claims to have done this, but for some reason he's missing tea, sulphur and ancient temple and has added cannabis.
I think you may be missing the point. There are mods and there are mod components. For the most part I work on mod components, there are two exceptions though, the Specialists Mod and the Great Options Mod, Core Edition. The first being a mod designed to showcase how my great person mod components integrate together. The Great Options Mod, Core Edition provides mod makers a framework for using all of my mods and a handful of selected mods as a base for their mod.

tdb said:
My proposal for a solution is quite straightforward: split all mods into their basic building blocks. Even to the level of having a separate mod for each new resource and unit. The new civilization mods are already doing this pretty well - each one only contains that civilization and nothing else (the civ and UU being bundled is okay).

With the help of my mod combiner program (see sig), it's very easy to combine these mini-mods into larger ones. When I get mod dependencies implemented, it'll also be possible to create one "virtual" mod, which doesn't add anything in itself but depends on all components in a certain mod pack.
Using your example, the GreenMod, if you are going to split up the resources found in that mod and remove all of the unit tweaks then how is your program going to assign the new resources as prereqs to buildings and units?

What if a unit is an integral part of a mod component needed to show case the features of the mod component, such as the sniper mod? How would the sniper mod work if we used your proposal and split the sniper mod into several mods: one for the sniper functionality, a couple for each sniper unit and the rest for each sniper promotion?

tdb said:
Another thing I've noted is that when old mods are made "1.61 compatible", they're still based on an old version of the game. For example, somewhere between 1.09 and 1.61, the iLimitedWarPowerRatio of almost all leaders was increased by 10. When I create difference files from supposedly 1.61 compatible mods adding new civilizations, I get loads of reports about "changes" to this property as a result of the mod still having the 1.09 file. There are several other cases like this.
Have you thought about contacting the author of the mod and letting them know that they are still using old files? For the mods that have outdated files did you consider that the author might no longer be around to support their mod? Did the mod with the outdated files have a note saying what patch version the mod supported?

tdb said:
The solution for this would be that mod makers would keep their work in a difference format in one way or another. My program does not yet have any aditing capabilities, but the upcoming version 0.4 will feature a very simple text editor. Since my program produces a single difference file per mod, those files could also be used for distributing the mods.
So are you trying to dictate to the mod component making community that we should only release the changes we made to files? What about people who want to only play with that mod? Wouldn't this prevent them from doing this?

tdb said:
I understand if mod makers will want to wait a bit for my program to mature a bit (version 1.0 is not too far), but please give these things some thought, and share your thoughts with me.
So here is the real 1 ton anvil on your "mod combiner program" what about mod components that modify SDK files, for example like the sniper mod, mercenaries mod, Water Animals Mod, etc., etc.? How would you handle those mods? Are you going to dictate where mod component makers need to put their source files? Are you going to provide a compiler in your tool to help people combine these types of mods?
 
TheLopez just saved me a lot of typing. :D
 
Us old programmer types don't like to be told what to do. Especially when we're doing it for free. ;)
 
Dale said:
Us old programmer types don't like to be told what to do. Especially when we're doing it for free. ;)

:yup: Ditto...
 
Firstly, I'm sorry if I sounded like I'm trying to dictate things. That was not my purpose. If I'm alone with my opinions, I have no choice but to do all that splitting and cleaning up myself.

TheLopez said:
Can you please provide us with what your definition of "large"? When you refer to mods are you talking about the mods in the "Civ4 - Modpacks" subforum or "Civ4 - Mod Components" subforum?

My definition of large is that the mods contains multiple things that could be easily separated. For example, some things from GreenMod:
  • Game speeds
  • Forest replanting
  • Resources
  • Units

TheLopez said:
I think you may be missing the point. There are mods and there are mod components. For the most part I work on mod components, there are two exceptions though, the Specialists Mod and the Great Options Mod, Core Edition. The first being a mod designed to showcase how my great person mod components integrate together. The Great Options Mod, Core Edition provides mod makers a framework for using all of my mods and a handful of selected mods as a base for their mod.

Yes, there are mod components, but not everything that is available in big mods is available as a separate component. For example the tea, sulphur and ancient temple resources of GreenMod. So far I also haven't spotted any single units or wonders as mod components, while they're quite common in bigger mods. Feel free to prove me wrong.

TheLopez said:
Using your example, the GreenMod, if you are going to split up the resources found in that mod and remove all of the unit tweaks then how is your program going to assign the new resources as prereqs to buildings and units?

By using mod dependencies. If you want unit X which requires resource Y, then you need to have resource Y as well.

TheLopez said:
What if a unit is an integral part of a mod component needed to show case the features of the mod component, such as the sniper mod? How would the sniper mod work if we used your proposal and split the sniper mod into several mods: one for the sniper functionality, a couple for each sniper unit and the rest for each sniper promotion?

Well, if features X and Y clearly don't make sense separately, then they can be a bundle. Or if there's a case when feature X needs either A, B or C to make sense, it could simply state in its description that it doesn't do anything on its own.

TheLopez said:
Have you thought about contacting the author of the mod and letting them know that they are still using old files? For the mods that have outdated files did you consider that the author might no longer be around to support their mod? Did the mod with the outdated files have a note saying what patch version the mod supported?

Yes, however I will need to improve the report format of my program a bit before doing that. I'm also perfectly aware that not all authors are around anymore. I'm just suggesting countermeasures to prevent that happening again with future patches (and the expansion), since all that clutter makes it more likely that the mods will conflict when using an automated merging tool.

TheLopez said:
So are you trying to dictate to the mod component making community that we should only release the changes we made to files? What about people who want to only play with that mod? Wouldn't this prevent them from doing this?

No. I'm only suggesting that you could do it. Of course there could also be a "plug-and-play" version of the mod that could just be dropped in and used right away. My program will make it easy to do that once the components are ready.

TheLopez said:
So here is the real 1 ton anvil on your "mod combiner program" what about mod components that modify SDK files, for example like the sniper mod, mercenaries mod, Water Animals Mod, etc., etc.? How would you handle those mods? Are you going to dictate where mod component makers need to put their source files? Are you going to provide a compiler in your tool to help people combine these types of mods?

I'll have to get some more information about the SDK before I can answer that. If combining multiple SDK mods requires combining and recompiling source files, how are "ordinary" people going to accomplish it anyway, with or without and merging program?


Yet another thing is mods that alter game balance. These are particularly hard to combine with other mods, because adding e.g. new civilizations might bring those balance issues back and thus practically render the balance changes useless, or make the original issue even worse. I don't have any proposed solutions for this, but if someone else does, I'd be interested to hear.

Mods that add new leader traits also fall into this category.
 
I'm also not sure if having separate .dll files will be feasible either.

It seems that alot of people are trying to thing of ways of doing things to make mods more pluggable. With the CCP (see my sig), we're trying to build a .dll file which will hopefully be pluggable with as many mods as possible, so that no fancy .dll merging must be done. We're aiming to include as many mods as possible with it, with a nice options screen where the mods can be enabled or disabled.

One of the other features we're thinking about including makes XML mods more pluggable is allowing many different files to contain the data for a particuar thing (like the text files are at the moment). This should hopefully help with plugging mods together.
 
tdb said:
So far I also haven't spotted any single units or wonders as mod components, while they're quite common in bigger mods. Feel free to prove me wrong.

I made "The Sacred Tori Gate at Miyajima Island", which is a wonder, as a stand-alone mod component.

Roger Bacon
 
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