Thoughts on possible Domination/Conquest victory? (Justinian/Noble)

[Darkeagle6]

Alright, so I'm a new player (got the game on a steam sale 75% off and became hopelessly hooked) and I've recently started playing noble. Currently I think I'm doing pretty well in my current game as Justinian; I seem to be more advanced than the AI and the way things are going I imagine I could do a space victory without much trouble (Or am I wrong? Please tell me if that's the case!).

However, I've never won a domination or conquest victory, mainly because I'm much more of a builder than a warmonger personality-wise. It's partly why it's hard for me to focus on war; those wonders look so appealing! (Though I've been getting better at it, and most of my recent games involve a successful war). The previous Noble game I played, I was in a similar position, and tried to win through war to test myself, but I got bogged down by my complete lack of knowledge about modern warfare. I want to try again (Especially since it feels like Justinian's traits would go to waste if I just stayed peacefully in my corner), but I'm not sure how to go about it. I thought I'd post my save file to get general suggestions on how to go about to doing that from where I am, though please feel free to comment on and criticize everything you see in it; I'm still learning, so please be nice

Some comments/thoughts/questions:

-As you can probably infer from my cities, I used to have Willem of the Dutch as my neighbour. I wiped him out around 700-800 AD IIRC. Thoughts on the cities I kept? Also, that city up in the tundra in the North-east of my continent used to be a barb city which I kept by accident...

- Do you think the only reason I'm in advance of the two isolated civs is that they're Monty and Shaka? I wonder about that... it feels like I'm doing too well :/ (Is this delusional? Please tell me if so!)

As I was winning against the Dutch, Frederick asked to be my vassal, presumably because my military was by far the strongest on the continent. I agreed, because that had never happened to me before, but now I notice that all of the other AIs have a diplomatic -2 because of it. I had no idea that could happen... was it a bad idea? I figured he could be a nice safety cushion in case Toku came knocking, but...

-After the war with the Dutch, I deleted part of my army (mainly the ones with one or no promotion and the left-over warriors and archers). What remains has been sitting in cities to help with happyness under hereditary rule. I built few units after that except for the occasional longbowman, and mostly focussed on building and strenghtening my economy. Should I have done things differently? ie Deleted more of it to lower maintenance costs, upgraded some of them to keep my power rating up (the other Civs' power has gone past mine, way past in fact, I think), etc.? My idea was to lay relatively low on military to build up economy until I got to the riflemen/cavalry era, which I was hoping to reach much earlier than my rivals (which seems like it's about to happen)...

-I was thinking of getting the island to the northeast of the continent, as it is only occupied by barbs right now, and it would contribute to my land%... Worth it?

-Please note, as I'm new to the game, I'm still experimenting with things (such as ressource trading and specialists), so some of the things I've done may not make much sense. (While I'm at it, here's a question : do buildings that improve science/culture/etc. by a specific percentage (such as a GS' academy or a cathedral) affect the output generated by specialists?)

So, any help is much appreciated! If I'm doing this kind of topic wrong, please tell me! Also, I have a few earlier saves if anyone is interrested in seeing how things could have been done differently, though I don't save very often (maybe I should do that more).

EDIT: While I'm thinking about it, any suggestions of Youtube walkthrough of Conquest/domination victories, ideally ones which span all eras of warfare, would be gladly appreciated!

 

[Benginal]

Overall your empire management is looking good. You're working all improved tiles, I count tiles with forests as improved. (sue my vranasm, ). Although you do only have four workers, not sure how you pulled that one off. You seem to understand the benefits of the national wonders, natl epic in the city that's running specialists, etc. You have some nice infrastructure in place and from what I can tell you are building buildings in the right order, granary/lighthouse/courthouse first work from there, etc. You are probably building too many buildings and not enough units/wealth. But that will come with experience.

Comments/Thoughts/Answers

-As you can probably infer from my cities, I used to have Willem of the Dutch as my neighbour. I wiped him out around 700-800 AD IIRC. Thoughts on the cities I kept? Also, that city up in the tundra in the North-east of my continent used to be a barb city which I kept by accident...

Almost always keep all late war cities. They usually are of a decent size and have some infrastructure. There are a few reasons to raze them, but nothing that needs to be worried about at Noble. Just keep them all.

- Do you think the only reason I'm in advance of the two isolated civs is that they're Monty and Shaka? I wonder about that... it feels like I'm doing too well :/ (Is this delusional? Please tell me if so!)

You are certainly doing very well. It helps that the other AIs aren't the best techers in the world (pun intended). It looks like Monty was isolated, which will slow him down. And finally i'd guess that Shaka had another person on his island that he took out. That's the only way I see him having 14 cities. And that probably slowed down his tech rate. Toku is notoriously bad and his refusal to trade makes him worse. So yeah, a lot of things happened to put you in this good a position. So you are doing too well, . Don't expect results that good every time.

As I was winning against the Dutch, Frederick asked to be my vassal, presumably because my military was by far the strongest on the continent. I agreed, because that had never happened to me before, but now I notice that all of the other AIs have a diplomatic -2 because of it. I had no idea that could happen... was it a bad idea? I figured he could be a nice safety cushion in case Toku came knocking, but...

Yeah go ahead and take the peace vassal. It was not a bad idea. You need to use your vassal more though. He has some happy resources to spare. Just go ahead and demand them and he'll surely give them to you. And you can tell the AIs what to tech so you can in effect double your research rate.

-After the war with the Dutch, I deleted part of my army (mainly the ones with one or no promotion and the left-over warriors and archers). What remains has been sitting in cities to help with happyness under hereditary rule. I built few units after that except for the occasional longbowman, and mostly focussed on building and strenghtening my economy. Should I have done things differently? ie Deleted more of it to lower maintenance costs, upgraded some of them to keep my power rating up (the other Civs' power has gone past mine, way past in fact, I think), etc.? My idea was to lay relatively low on military to build up economy until I got to the riflemen/cavalry era, which I was hoping to reach much earlier than my rivals (which seems like it's about to happen)...

Power rating is largely irrelevant. There are tons of threads about war decelerations and the mechanics behind them. Power rating plays a small role. Deleting units is probably okay. What it should tell you, most importantly, is to build fewer units next time. You'll get a feel for how many you need so you build just the right amount next time.

You will reach any military techs you want quicker than your rivals. Cannons and Rifles against Toku looks like a nice idea. And then whatever you want will get you win for sure.

-I was thinking of getting the island to the northeast of the continent, as it is only occupied by barbs right now, and it would contribute to my land%... Worth it?

I wouldn't, but that's just because I'm lazy. Also, it's probably not worth the maintenance for the small amount of land. But it might be your only source of oil or something and you have the money to afford so you might as well. Late game cities are usually okay. Give a city ten citizens a factory and a power plant and it'll be a good investment.

-Please note, as I'm new to the game, I'm still experimenting with things (such as ressource trading and specialists), so some of the things I've done may not make much sense. (While I'm at it, here's a question : do buildings that improve science/culture/etc. by a specific percentage (such as a GS' academy or a cathedral) affect the output generated by specialists?)

Yes they do. Hover over or or sign in the city screen to see where it's all coming from and the multipliers that are being applied and when they're being applied.

So, any help is much appreciated! If I'm doing this kind of topic wrong, please tell me! Also, I have a few earlier saves if anyone is interrested in seeing how things could have been done differently, though I don't save very often (maybe I should do that more).

Two things that will get you more responses. First, post screenshots. People love pictures and don't like loading up games. So learn how to take screenshots, host them somewhere, and put them in your post. Second, earlier in the game is better. The later it gets the game the less interested people are in it.

EDIT: While I'm thinking about it, any suggestions of Youtube walkthrough of Conquest/domination victories, ideally ones which span all eras of warfare, would be gladly appreciated!

Pretty much anything by TMIT on youtube. He's a true warmonger. There are also lots and lots of games on the forums that showcase all kinds of war. I used a lot of war in all of my ALC games so far, in my signature, and will be embarking on an industrial era naval romp sometime soon in the Pericles game.

 

[Darkeagle6]

Wow, Thank you so much for taking all this time to answer me, Benginal! that was very helpful. A few follow up questions (for anyone who wants to answer them):

Overall your empire management is looking good. You're working all improved tiles, I count tiles with forests as improved. (sue my vranasm, ). Although you do only have four workers, not sure how you pulled that one off.

Oh, that's because some of my workers are "asleep" in my cities, because I honestly couldn't think of an actual useful thing for them to do. Perhaps I should've made those workers build more roads in the western part of the continent? Chopped more forests? (I was hesitating because that led to a slight hammer loss)...

You are probably building too many buildings and not enough units/wealth. But that will come with experience.

Which reminds me of another question: Which is better to build, science or wealth? Because for most of the game, I use the money to let myself tech at a higher rate... What benefit is there to building wealth rather than science? (is it that the money is ultimately used for more things?)

Almost always keep all late war cities. They usually are of a decent size and have some infrastructure. There are a few reasons to raze them, but nothing that needs to be worried about at Noble. Just keep them all.

Hmm, okay. The reason I razed some of them is that they seemed very poorly placed (ie food poor, no ressources, little economic potential, etc.) I captured the capital early on in the war, and a few of the late war cities were actually only just settled so that Willem could survive a bit longer; they had literally no benefit considering their eventual maintenance. But maybe I'm wrong...

You are certainly doing very well. It helps that the other AIs aren't the best techers in the world (pun intended). It looks like Monty was isolated, which will slow him down. And finally i'd guess that Shaka had another person on his island that he took out. That's the only way I see him having 14 cities. And that probably slowed down his tech rate. Toku is notoriously bad and his refusal to trade makes him worse. So yeah, a lot of things happened to put you in this good a position. So you are doing too well, . Don't expect results that good every time.

Ah, yeah, that's what I figured. It seemed a bit too good to be true. I did think Shaka might've taken someone out... I also found out about Tokugawa the hard way. He wouldn't even trade me stuff at pleased... I take it it's rarely ever worth trying to get on his good side?

Yeah go ahead and take the peace vassal. It was not a bad idea. You need to use your vassal more though. He has some happy resources to spare. Just go ahead and demand them and he'll surely give them to you. And you can tell the AIs what to tech so you can in effect double your research rate.

0_0 I had no idea the master had that kind of power on the vassal. I should probably read more on this, does the Civilopedia talk about this? Or an introductory article perhaps... I'll check it out.

Power rating is largely irrelevant. There are tons of threads about war decelerations and the mechanics behind them. Power rating plays a small role. Deleting units is probably okay. What it should tell you, most importantly, is to build fewer units next time. You'll get a feel for how many you need so you build just the right amount next time.

Largely irrelevant? Really? Wow, that's a big surprise to me. I remember last time I played as the Incas (can't remember the leader's name), I had an isolated (well, okay, there was Napoleon, but he was taken out by those UU warrior replacements in the 3000 BCs) situation and around the time I met most of the other rivals, it took very little time for Charlemagne to declare on me (and completely obliterate my puny army to take my capital, at which point I quit because there was no way I would survive his relatively big invasion force). I assumed it was because of the fact that in my isolation I had stupidly neglected my army, although the fact that he had two -4 diplo demerits (religion+trading with worse enemy) probably didn't help... I'll try to go and find info on war declarations, in that case...

You will reach any military techs you want quicker than your rivals. Cannons and Rifles against Toku looks like a nice idea. And then whatever you want will get you win for sure.

Hmm, okay, against Toku, no problem, but I have no idea of the logistics of attacking an oversea enemey (especially warmongers, who I imagine are going to offer a better resistance than Willem). Is there anywhere I can read about this topic? Maybe I should watch more videos, mind, the TMIT let's play I watched started to war at the point he got cavalry, and while it was very entertaining and instructive to watch him stomp on people, by the time he was attacking overseas all he needed to do was to nuke everyone until they voted him king of the world...

Two things that will get you more responses. First, post screenshots. People love pictures and don't like loading up games. So learn how to take screenshots, host them somewhere, and put them in your post. Second, earlier in the game is better. The later it gets the game the less interested people are in it.

Yeah, that makes sense. The thing is, I wanted people to get a general look at my game until now and I had no idea where to start for pictures... there seemed to be too much. Although that probably comes with posting such a late game file... Maybe I should post a file towards the end of the war against the dutch, if anyone is interested? that's around 600AD IIRC

Pretty much anything by TMIT on youtube. He's a true warmonger. There are also lots and lots of games on the forums that showcase all kinds of war. I used a lot of war in all of my ALC games so far, in my signature, and will be embarking on an industrial era naval romp sometime soon in the Pericles game.

I'll go check out the Pericles game, then! Again, I'm very grateful for all the help. Thank you! Hopefully someday I'll have the experience to help out newcommers like this

 

[GGracchus]

Domination should be a piece of cake, just build up some cannons and rifles and kill toku. Build up transports and marines, or check out TMIT's video walkthrough of the Pericles game, he demonstrated a cool 1-turn nuke elimination strategy. You could try that, but on noble, it you don't need nukes. You could probably jump a couple of levels to Monarch, you should try it.

 

[Benginal]

Which reminds me of another question: Which is better to build, science or wealth? Because for most of the game, I use the money to let myself tech at a higher rate... What benefit is there to building wealth rather than science? (is it that the money is ultimately used for more things?)

Wealth is better to build when cities have more multipliers than they do multipliers. As a simple example imagine a city with 10 from tiles it's working and a library. You can build wealth which will go to your coffers. You can then spend 10 more gold more turn on research by running the slider higher and the city can produce 12.5 or you can build science and get only 10 per turn. So build wealth if you have more beaker multiplying buildings. Build research if you have more hammer multiplying buildings or you're already at 100% and need a tech pronto or are not at a deficit.

Hmm, okay. The reason I razed some of them is that they seemed very poorly placed (ie food poor, no ressources, little economic potential, etc.) I captured the capital early on in the war, and a few of the late war cities were actually only just settled so that Willem could survive a bit longer; they had literally no benefit considering their eventual maintenance. But maybe I'm wrong...

Oh well that's fine. I said to keep late game war cities because they're generally big. So if they are small useless cities razing is probably okay. Another reason to keep late game cities though is that otherwise some other AI will come put a city there. That really annoys me, so I tend to keep those crappy city sites, but it's probably fine if you don't.

Ah, yeah, that's what I figured. It seemed a bit too good to be true. I did think Shaka might've taken someone out... I also found out about Tokugawa the hard way. He wouldn't even trade me stuff at pleased... I take it it's rarely ever worth trying to get on his good side?

It's worth it on the highest levels, when Toku will build lots of units and come make life miserable for you. Giving him a gift city is a useful trick. But in general, let him sit by himself in the corner.

0_0 I had no idea the master had that kind of power on the vassal. I should probably read more on this, does the Civilopedia talk about this? Or an introductory article perhaps... I'll check it out.

I'm sure there is.

Largely irrelevant? Really? Wow, that's a big surprise to me. I remember last time I played as the Incas (can't remember the leader's name), I had an isolated (well, okay, there was Napoleon, but he was taken out by those UU warrior replacements in the 3000 BCs) situation and around the time I met most of the other rivals, it took very little time for Charlemagne to declare on me (and completely obliterate my puny army to take my capital, at which point I quit because there was no way I would survive his relatively big invasion force). I assumed it was because of the fact that in my isolation I had stupidly neglected my army, although the fact that he had two -4 diplo demerits (religion+trading with worse enemy) probably didn't help... I'll try to go and find info on war declarations, in that case...

Yeah, diplo relations are way more important than power rating. He still would have invaded you even if your power rating had been higher than his. You might also be surprised to find that the worst enemy is not just largely, but completely irrelevant, except as it affects trading with worst enemy diplo modifiers and represents who a particular AI might be annoyed/furious with. Here's a thread that might interest you.

Hmm, okay, against Toku, no problem, but I have no idea of the logistics of attacking an oversea enemey (especially warmongers, who I imagine are going to offer a better resistance than Willem). Is there anywhere I can read about this topic? Maybe I should watch more videos, mind, the TMIT let's play I watched started to war at the point he got cavalry, and while it was very entertaining and instructive to watch him stomp on people, by the time he was attacking overseas all he needed to do was to nuke everyone until they voted him king of the world...

Yeah, I hate late game warfare. You can either nuke them all into oblivion or win a space race.

Yeah, that makes sense. The thing is, I wanted people to get a general look at my game until now and I had no idea where to start for pictures... there seemed to be too much. Although that probably comes with posting such a late game file... Maybe I should post a file towards the end of the war against the dutch, if anyone is interested? that's around 600AD IIRC

Nice try. 600 AD is still probably too late. Just start a brand new game and people will give advice.

I'll go check out the Pericles game, then! Again, I'm very grateful for all the help. Thank you! Hopefully someday I'll have the experience to help out newcommers like this

As GGracchus pointed out, TMIT did shadow this pericles game on youtube. So you can see what he did as well as what I'm doing. Unfortunately for you, my play style has been very much affected by TMITs, so don't be surprised if we do something similar.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Largely irrelevant? Really? Wow, that's a big surprise to me. I remember last time I played as the Incas (can't remember the leader's name), I had an isolated (well, okay, there was Napoleon, but he was taken out by those UU warrior replacements in the 3000 BCs) situation and around the time I met most of the other rivals, it took very little time for Charlemagne to declare on me (and completely obliterate my puny army to take my capital, at which point I quit because there was no way I would survive his relatively big invasion force). I assumed it was because of the fact that in my isolation I had stupidly neglected my army, although the fact that he had two -4 diplo demerits (religion+trading with worse enemy) probably didn't help... I'll try to go and find info on war declarations, in that case...

It's a bit strange, but yea, Power rating tends to be a lousy deterrent. The aggressive warmongers such as Napolean, Alexander, and co, require you to have a lot more power than they do before they'd back down. And if you really want to build such a strong army to deter them, you'd actually want to use it to conquer them then anyways.

 

[GGracchus]

Oh, that's because some of my workers are "asleep" in my cities, because I honestly couldn't think of an actual useful thing for them to do. Perhaps I should've made those workers build more roads in the western part of the continent? Chopped more forests? (I was hesitating because that led to a slight hammer loss)...

Largely irrelevant? Really? Wow, that's a big surprise to me. I remember last time I played as the Incas (can't remember the leader's name), I had an isolated (well, okay, there was Napoleon, but he was taken out by those UU warrior replacements in the 3000 BCs) situation and around the time I met most of the other rivals, it took very little time for Charlemagne to declare on me (and completely obliterate my puny army to take my capital, at which point I quit because there was no way I would survive his relatively big invasion force). I assumed it was because of the fact that in my isolation I had stupidly neglected my army, although the fact that he had two -4 diplo demerits (religion+trading with worse enemy) probably didn't help... I'll try to go and find info on war declarations, in that case...

1)Chopping early generally provides a better option that leaving them. I used to use lumbermills, but now I'll just get SP and workshop everything, which is far more hammers per tile. Your workers should always be doing something unless every tile in every city's BFC is improved and you aren't building new cities.

2)Each leader has a certain level where he'll be able to plot to declare war. For about half, it's cautious, for about half, it's pleased. They can't declare on friendly. Each turn, a RNG will roll to determine if they'll stay peaceful, plot war, or declare war ASAP. I don't know the precise mechanics. If you get BAT/BUG(I think on BUG), on the scoreboard there'll be a fist to indicate they're either at war or plotting it. You can also check manually by going to the trade screen and the "declare war on" part. If it says "We have enough on our hands right now" (WHEOORN), then they're either plotting or at war.

 

[Darkeagle6]

Alright, thanks for the help everyone! Sorry I didn't get back sooner, school was taking up all of my time. Anyway, I did win this particular game with a domination victory. I first attacked Tokugawa from the sea, since I figured Frederick and I could attack him on both fronts. I have no idea he did so, but Tokugawa capitulated after I took two cities, so no complaints either way.

Then I started thinking of attacking Shaka, but I wanted to wait until I had infantry and marines... Well, I'd captured a third of his continent (I almost lost the first city I captured, too, he threw all of his existing troops at me, including remaining war elephants, and almost took it back because he had a zillion siege units) and he was showing no signs of bowing down to me, so I got all the technologies necessary to nuke him a few turns later, and bombed his southern cities until he capitulated. The funnies part is that by that point I was 2% of the land away from domination... I almost stopped there, but then I had the idea of sticking all the artists I could into all of my newly captured cities, sticking the culture slider to 100%, and clicking the end turn button a few times... one turn later, I win! =D

Anyway, I appreciate all the comments, I learned quite a lot. I'll go ahead and try the current Nobles' club game, and if I win this one without too many problems, I'll try to switch to prince!

 

[A_Hamster]

If you haven't discovered it already, the War Academy on this site has a variety of informative articles. Just click on the CFC logo and then look at the left side of the page. You may need to scroll down now that CiV has pride of place.