Thoughts on Saint Patrick's Day

[cybrxkhan]

alt history Irish Byzantine Kingdom ftw


Seriously though he looks freaking awesome with that orthodox-style shamrock

 

[peter grimes]

Don't know much about Saint Patrick, but I'm intrigued by the myth of Brandon. Supposedly sailed West. Pretty far, too.

 

[Desertsnow]

Now this is just bizarre. Christian are the destroyers of "Celtic" culture, and so unable to speak with any insight on that topic. Yet, the overwhelming majority of "Celts" living today are Christian, culturally if not by faith, so what you propose is denying them- us, I should say, being myself a "Celt", denying us any say in what constitutes our culture and identity. Can you not see how this might be construed, as Park says, as just a wee bit insulting?

I wonder, are you yourself a "Celt"? Because the way you talk about them, us, as two-dimensional historical curiosities, does not speak to any serious participation in any "Celtic" identity.

I have no Celtic roots of which I am aware (though, as I have not traced my genealogy in depth, one never knows). On the other hand (and by much the same token), if you perceive my perception of the Celtic peoples as two-dimensional, then you sorely underestimate me. The issue is that of the unmitigated arrogance of mediaeval Christians striving to recreate the world in their image when the world was doing just fine as it was. The ancient religions were rich and worthy traditions, and as I said, the world is poorer for their destruction by a religion (Christianity) whose own supremacism is its own main tenet.

 

[peter grimes]

the world was doing just fine as it was.

Well that's a wild claim which I strongly doubt you can substantiate.

 

[Desertsnow]

Well that's a wild claim which I strongly doubt you can substantiate.

Wild claim? How was the world suffering, as could be remedied by Christianity? I'd like to see you substantiate the implied (and wild) claim that the world was suffering for lack of the Christian religion.

 

[Traitorfish]

I have no Celtic roots of which I am aware (though, as I have not traced my genealogy in depth, one never knows). On the other hand (and by much the same token), if you perceive my perception of the Celtic peoples as two-dimensional, then you sorely underestimate me. The issue is that of the unmitigated arrogance of mediaeval Christians striving to recreate the world in their image when the world was doing just fine as it was. The ancient religions were rich and worthy traditions, and as I said, the world is poorer for their destruction by a religion (Christianity) whose own supremacism is its own main tenet.

The Christianition of Ireland was by all accounts a largely voluntary process. It wasn't imposed by foreign invaders, but taken up by local elites for their own purposes, and seemed to enjoy popular acceptance. There's very little to suggest that it was established by the sword as it was in Scandinavia, for example, and whatever the means by which Christianity came to dominate Ireland, it did so on Gaelic terms. Distinctly Gaelic systems of property, kinship and law persisted, the Gaelic language survived and indeed flourished, and enough of folk religion was preserved that a sincere belief in faeries was commonplace in rural Ireland and Scotland into the 20th century.

The religious genocide you imagine is simply fiction, a fantasy of your own devising, at odds with the historical records and scholarly consensus. You're saying things which aren't true, which you have no reason to think are true, but which feel true, because they satisfy your under-criticised assumptions about how history works and Christianity's place with in it. And both as a "Celt" and as a student of history, I really must take issue with that.

 

[peter grimes]

Well that's a wild claim which I strongly doubt you can substantiate.

Wild claim? How was the world suffering, as could be remedied by Christianity? I'd like to see you substantiate the implied (and wild) claim that the world was suffering for lack of the Christian religion.

I wasn't clear, sorry. My comment was intended to challenge your claim that the world was getting along fine without suffering.

It was not my intention to imply that Christianity itself had anything to do with alleviating suffering after being forced upon people.

 

[Desertsnow]

The Christianition of Ireland was by all accounts a largely voluntary process. It wasn't imposed by foreign invaders, but taken up by local elites for their own purposes, and seemed to enjoy popular acceptance. There's very little to suggest that it was established by the sword as it was in Scandinavia, for example, and whatever the means by which Christianity came to dominate Ireland, it did so on Gaelic terms. Distinctly Gaelic systems of property, kinship and law persisted, the Gaelic language survived and indeed flourished, and enough of folk religion was preserved that a sincere belief in faeries was commonplace in rural Ireland and Scotland into the 20th century.

The religious genocide you imagine is simply fiction, a fantasy of your own devising, at odds with the historical records and scholarly consensus. You're saying things which aren't true, which you have no reason to think are true, but which feel true, because they satisfy your under-criticised assumptions about how history works and Christianity's place with in it. And both as a "Celt" and as a student of history, I really must take issue with that.

Voluntary or not in conversion in Celtic lands, Christians in Celtic lands and elsewhere still have their own supremacism as their own main tenet. There is no room for anything else. I take issue with that.

I wasn't clear, sorry. My comment was intended to challenge your claim that the world was getting along fine without suffering.

It was not my intention to imply that Christianity itself had anything to do with alleviating suffering after being forced upon people.

That was the implication nevertheless. Christianity is a religion and nothing more. Yes, it can bring joy, and yes in can bring fulfillment, but so can any other religion, or abstention from religion, if that is one's preference. Christians willfully refuse to grok that.

 

[Traitorfish]

Voluntary or not in conversion in Celtic lands, Christians in Celtic lands and elsewhere still have their own supremacism as their own main tenet. There is no room for anything else. I take issue with that.

As you please, but this whole schema you're drawing up is so distant from any historical reality you might as well be talking about Sith and Jedi.