Thoughts on Saint Patrick's Day

Traitorfish said:
I'm not really sold on this identification of "Celtic" and "pagan". As if Christianistion implies a loss of identity or language? That's not only untrue, it strays close to being actually offensive, as if only pagans are "real" Gaels, and the rest are foreigners in their own homes.
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Also, you know, the whole association of the Religions of the Celtic world under the rubric of "Pagan" is pretty damn insulting when we're talking about applying it to real people.
 
Is it? I thought pagan just meant someone who lived in the countryside.
 
I didn't see any vomit on my way to work this morning thankfully (I wouldn't have been surprised if I had though)
I picked up a couple of beer bottles while I was putting out the trash.
 
That's the etymology of the word, but that's not the meaning we use when we talk about Paganism in the "Celtic World". Bunching everything into "the old Celtic Religion" is not only academically unfashionable, but yeah, pretty damn demeaning to the culture of Ireland before the arrival of Patrick, not to mention the dehumanization of the actual 'pagans' that were contemporaneous to him.

Yet another case of "Damn Scots, they ruined Scotland!"
 
But what else can you do? What's left of the former religions of the Celtic World than this "bunching" together into revivalist-Paganism?

Still, what do I know about it?

Yet, surely even a parody of ancient religion is better than nothing? At least there's some alternative to monolithic Catholicism.
 
Borachio said:
But what else can you do? What's left of the former religions of the Celtic World than this "bunching" together into revivalist-Paganism?
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A respectful understanding of the limits of our knowledge, and the existence of these individuals as individuals?


Yet, surely even a parody of ancient religion is better than nothing? At least there's some alternative to monolithic Catholicism.
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I don't think most people consider parody a respectful remembrance. Especially by religious traditions that, at least in part, did not want to be known or remembered by people in general.

As for alternatives to "monolithic Catholicism" there's never been a lack of those.
 
Hmm. Parody isn't quite the right word, I agree. I can't think of a more suitable, for the moment.
 
ParkCungHee said:
Also, you know, the whole association of the Religions of the Celtic world under the rubric of "Pagan" is pretty damn insulting when we're talking about applying it to real people.
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That's also a good point. It's certainly not a category that would have made sense to the "pagans" themselves.
 
I only really celebrated St. Paddy's day when I was younger. You know, go out, drink green things, get crapfaced.

As an adult I pretty much ignore the holiday except that I do peek at all the ladies wearing tight and revealing green outfits. It just doesn't touch me in any other way, no offense to Irish people. Plus didn't St. Patrick kind of chase the pagans out of Ireland or something like that? That's kind of mean. I don't want to celebrate that.
 
ParkCungHee said:
Also, you know, the whole association of the Religions of the Celtic world under the rubric of "Pagan" is pretty damn insulting when we're talking about applying it to real people.
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This is all a bit new to me. Can people who've been dead for millenia actually feel insulted?
 
Borachio said:
And I thought corned beef was an Argentinian thing.

I was wrong.

I quite like corned beef occasionally.


Oh, that's a shame.

I'm pretty sure that St Patrick's Day celebrations have just coopted some earlier tradition. Isn't the 17th of March a pagan festival? I bet it is.

And if there's drinking involved, and there is, how much more typically pagan can you get?

edit: I see the 17th of March is said to be when St Patrick died. He who was famous for converting the Irish away from paganism. So, it seems you have a point.

Even so, isn't it more a celebration of being Irish than a religious festival?
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Saint Patrick's Day celebrations have been accused of coopting earlier traditions before. This is one case in which it is not true (it is true of Christmas and Easter). What throws people off the trail is the proximity of the day to the March equinox, which is the spring equinox in the northern hemisphere, and spring celebrations tend to be a bit revelrous. The celebration day of a saint is normally the day of his or her death.

Traitorfish said:
I'm not really sold on this identification of "Celtic" and "pagan". As if Christianistion implies a loss of identity or language? That's not only untrue, it strays close to being actually offensive, as if only pagans are "real" Gaels, and the rest are foreigners in their own homes.
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Christianity has sought to remake the world in its own image. I'm guessing you yourself are Christian, considering your utter disregard for the culture that was routed and your defense of the routing. Regardless of your religious alignment, this I find not only close to being offensive, not only actually offensive, but extremely and nauseatingly offensive. Okay, so Patrick bright Christianity to Ireland. What did Christianity bring to Ireland? This, for one. Which is the lesser evil?
 
We should combine St Paddy's Day and Mardi Gras so we can have topless leprechauns running around.
 
Desertsnow said:
Christianity has sought to remake the world in its own image. I'm guessing you yourself are Christian, considering your utter disregard for the culture that was routed and your defense of the routing. Regardless of your religious alignment, this I find not only close to being offensive, not only actually offensive, but extremely and nauseatingly offensive. Okay, so Patrick bright Christianity to Ireland. What did Christianity bring to Ireland? This, for one. Which is the lesser evil?
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Now this is just bizarre. Christian are the destroyers of "Celtic" culture, and so unable to speak with any insight on that topic. Yet, the overwhelming majority of "Celts" living today are Christian, culturally if not by faith, so what you propose is denying them- us, I should say, being myself a "Celt", denying us any say in what constitutes our culture and identity. Can you not see how this might be construed, as Park says, as just a wee bit insulting?

I wonder, are you yourself a "Celt"? Because the way you talk about them, us, as two-dimensional historical curiosities, does not speak to any serious participation in any "Celtic" identity.
 
Formaldehyde said:
It was also a day when an extreme amount of hostility was shown towards the British government. That in some of the Irish pubs toasts were openly made to IRA terrorists, some of whom were even in attendance.
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Do British terrorists get toasts on the 12th of July? Or January 30th?
 
Hey! Ireland! Your independace has been forfait ! Prepare to be annexed by uncle Putin ! :lol:

btw. I love what You did to those pipes ! Sound is beautifull, and don't worry wearing a skirt is not a crime ^^
 
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:mischief:
 
Interesting image, although I suppose it makes sense, because he's an Orthodox saint as much as a Catholic one.
 
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