Time for some bullying (or not)

[Meerk]

I promise my next SG will not prevent DoWs

I think that would be less of a problem if there weren't all those Mansas!

Still, I like the whole "take the idea to it's limit approach."

 

[mlinneak]

Hey guys
Got home late from work tonight. Reviewing the posts and playing now will post in a few!

 

[mlinneak]

Played till we got paper.

IT 400 AD Switched research to paper
- Set Teno on a forge
- Traded fish to Peach for 4 gpt

- Traded dye to Orange for 4 gpt

- Renegotiated deals with Yellow and Red to get 1 more gpt each for cow and ivory
- Sent warrior in Spear'd to Teno to replace the HA that I directed to camp the barb city

425 AD Cow-misser Jaguar -> 5 turn aqueduct as it will grow unhealthy next turn
- Spear'd worker -> market

450 Red wanted open borders - we have trade routes so I agreed which may have really been a move as we will find later
- Whip the market in Spear'd for 3 pop with 32 overflow

475 AD Spear'd market -> library
- Check tech trades and make these deals:
CS to Orange for Theo + 20 gold
CS to Black for construction + 10 gold
- Red would not trade anything to me for CS except 30 gold. I don't know if I really the tech trades this turnset, I hope I didn't foul up too badly

500 AD nothing noteworthy

520 AD Cow-misser aqueduct -> temple
- Lolco temple -> forge

540 AD Steal philo from Peach!!!
- I see that Red has sent a Jewish missionary to our borders - I cannot recall whether we want this religion spread to our cities - at this time I can only think that it would not help us at all but contribute to Red's shrine income - I panic and revolt to theocracy -> this will need to be discussed - thank goodness we are spiritual and can easily get out of that if needed, I thought that when I could cancel the OB deal we could revolt back, unless no one cares if he spreads Judaism to our cities, in which case we can switch to the pacifism / caste system mentioned earlier in the thread

560 AD Cow-misser temple -> cat
- Trade philo to Black for lit, drama + 20 gold

580 AD Trade philo + drama to Orange for fued + 50 gold
- Trade philo to Red for music

600 AD Cow-misser cat -> longbow
- We have a lot of people

- Whip forge in Teno for 3 pop with 33 overflow - intended to put the overflow into an altar but I forgot that there was a monument in queue already so that ate it up instead

620 AD Horice library -> aqueduct - they are unhealthy
- Spear'd library -> settler - did not realize that Peach moved in on the territory we meant to claim

640 AD Paper is in

- Slot Edu as a placeholder
- Cow-misser longbow -> monastery
- Teno monument -> altar
- Pig Farm granary -> altar
- Hire 2 scientists in Lolco
- Hire 1 scientist in Horice
- Decide to stop here

- Here is a nice world view

- And the tech screen

- A city overview

- And our cities

So, the Mansas just would not give me all the nice trades suggested by kossin. I hope the ones I did get were ok. All units should still have movement for the next player.

And the save ~

 

[kossin]

Good set,

Delete Warrior 1 sitting by Frosty

Cow misser - grow (cottage instead of mine) after Monastery -> Heroic Epic
Horice - whip aqueduct to rid of unhealth -> Theatre next, Hindu Mandir after
Spear'D - MM the city to work its best tiles, the settler will come out 1 turn faster (did the barb city ever grow to size 2? In that case we wouldn't need a settler)
Lolco - desert hill->riverside grass hill - won't matter if we go Pacifism/Caste though as that tile won't be worked

Regarding future stealing: Peach settled Uruk close to our Capital and it already has some of our culture on the tile, if we can spread Hinduism there it will be an even better place to steal from once roads are up.

Trades went OK it seems. I just tried what I had outlined and it worked

Only possible trade I see:
Orange Mansa Paper+Music<->Machinery+Map+gold

BUT!!!

If we go Pacifism+Caste System after whipping the cities, on turn 0, we can likely generate 2 GS in no time. The first will bulb Education (we finish researching it manually) and the second will bulb Liberalism, which should secure it. IMPORTANT: for this to work, don't trade for Machinery
Freebie = ?Nationalism (the most expensive)
Cow misser and Lolco should run as many scientists as possible (starve them if necessary... 6~7 in Lolco and around 5 in Cow misser. Don't forget to take them off before the cities starve though!
My only worry is Spy pollution in Lolco.

We also need to think of something to do in the upcoming turnsets... do we choose a VC or try piss off some more Mansas? I'd certainly piss off Blue...

Culture is boring.
Space is allowed (Apollo Program is a Team Project, not World Wonder) - could be fun with the techrate
Domination - fun but unlikely
Conquest - even more unlikely
Religious win - forget it
Diplomatic - forget it

1. Slibluhr
2. Gumbolt
3. cripp7
4. mlinneak - Just played
5. Meerk - UP!
6. mjg5591 - On deck!
7. kossin

 

[mlinneak]

Trades went OK it seems. I just tried what I had outlined and it worked

Only possible trade I see:
Orange Mansa Paper+Music<->Machinery+Map+gold

I don't know if it was the turn I tried the trades on that made a difference? I waited until Orange actually had machinery because I was going to try to trade to all of them in the same turn, to prevent them from brokering it to each other. Perhaps after I waited something changed where Red became more conservative with us? Immediately after Orange had machinery I tried the trades and Red just would not give me anything for CS except some gold, not even a lot of gold. He would not trade lit or drama even by themselves for CS, or for CS and our gold. It must be because I waited, it's the only thing I can think of. Next time I will take the trades right away.

 

[kossin]

Trading CS for Drama+Lit+gold on the first turn had no consequences as the other Mansas did not have anything to offer for it. Then using CS+Drama+Lit opened the other trades.
It doesn't matter though as you still nabbed all the important trades and the Liberalism bulb is open, which might actually be better

 

[Meerk]

Terrific write-up. I really like all the end-of-turn city pictures.

I plan to take my turn this evening. In preparation, I wrote up my thoughts on the cities. I am very interested in others' opinions. (In order to improve my thinking, I did this before reading Kossin's ideas. May as well learn how he thinks, right?)

My overall thought is we have a lot of unimproved tiles. Do we have enough workers? (I can't load the game, as I am at work.)


Also, we have not really made an explicit picture on which of our cities are focussed on production/commerce/GP. Relative to most games, I think we need fewer production cities -- those are great for world wonders and military, neither of which we really need too much of. So, I included my thoughts for which city should be which type.


Again, I greatly appreciate any thoughts you may have.


cowmiss: production city.
No huge rush on monastery. Tons of happiness, decent health. Maybe work fewer mines, more cottages?

horice: cottage city
OK. Maybe work forest in order to get aque faster?

Spear'D: production city
I don't love building a settler with such low population. Also, with CS would like to have more farms on the plains. Rework cottage -> farm.
<< Tn retrospect, problems with this location are more obvious to me. It really needs more green tiles.>>

Lolco: commerce/lite production city
needs workers chopping jungles. I don't want a forge here -- it's an economy city.

Frosty: bonus-tile city.
Can grow to decent size with lighthouse.
Personally, I think it should work 1 4 tile instead of 2 2. I think it should have made lighthouse instead of granary first -- it simply won't grow enough times (without a lighthouse) to make a granary worthwhile.

Teno: GP farm
Now that we have CS, can we get fresh water in here for farms? This is clearly whip central. Because of that, I think I would have made the sacrificial altar before the forge (I don't think the hammers get multiplied by forge, right?)

Pig Farm: Cottage city
We should be chopping forests like mad, putting in cottages.


If people agree to the purposes of the cities, should I add notes in-game?

 

[Meerk]

Horice - whip aqueduct to rid of unhealth -> Theatre next, Hindu Mandir after

I like this suggestion pretty well at the face of it. Then I got to thinking, 3-pop whipping will cost us 12 + 11 + 10 = 33 . 7 turns of 2 :unhealth: is 14 . Should I not whip, then? I honestly don't know.

If we go Pacifism+Caste System after whipping the cities, on turn 0, we can likely generate 2 GS in no time. The first will bulb Education (we finish researching it manually) and the second will bulb Liberalism, which should secure it.

I like this plan.

IMPORTANT: for this to work, don't trade for Machinery

Why?

Freebie = ?Nationalism (the most expensive)

Seems reasonable to me, although I can't actually see the options until tonight, since I can't open the game.

My only worry is Spy pollution in Lolco.

Hmm, how much of a chance would there be of getting a GSpy? I guess this depends on how much of the slider is filled up already, etc. Also, we maybe could improve our chances of getting a GS by getting the Lolco GS second (since the pollution would be a smaller portion of the then-larger pool).

We also need to think of something to do in the upcoming turnsets... do we choose a VC or try piss off some more Mansas? I'd certainly piss off Blue...

I think we should piss off more of them. Worst case, they all attack us, and then we have the story of being killed by a bunch of Mansas.

Culture is boring.
Space is allowed (Apollo Program is a Team Project, not World Wonder) - could be fun with the techrate
Domination - fun but unlikely
Conquest - even more unlikely
Religious win - forget it
Diplomatic - forget it

That's a discouraging, but probably realistic assessment. Again, doors open more if we piss off enough of them to DOW on us.

 

[kossin]

Terrific write-up. I really like all the end-of-turn city pictures.

I must say that I gotta agree, the time taken to resize the images to only show the important part is especially a plus!

My overall thought is we have a lot of unimproved tiles. Do we have enough workers? (I can't load the game, as I am at work.)

Maybe a worker or 2 more but we're not outgrowing our improved tiles that much really.

Also, we have not really made an explicit picture on which of our cities are focussed on production/commerce/GP. Relative to most games, I think we need fewer production cities -- those are great for world wonders and military, neither of which we really need too much of. So, I included my thoughts for which city should be which type.

True enough. Given our UB, whipping infrastructure makes production not that tasty.

Lolco: commerce/lite production city
needs workers chopping jungles. I don't want a forge here -- it's an economy city.

Forge works with the whip so I think it's fine.

Frosty: bonus-tile city.
Can grow to decent size with lighthouse.
Personally, I think it should work 1 4 tile instead of 2 2. I think it should have made lighthouse instead of granary first -- it simply won't grow enough times (without a lighthouse) to make a granary worthwhile.

Granary->whip lighthouse->grow

Teno: GP farm
Now that we have CS, can we get fresh water in here for farms? This is clearly whip central. Because of that, I think I would have made the sacrificial altar before the forge (I don't think the hammers get multiplied by forge, right?)

Whip central yes, GP farm so-so it can run 5 specialists with farms pre-bio but requires size 11 or 12(for iron).

Pig Farm: Cottage city
We should be chopping forests like mad, putting in cottages. I'd rather let it grow before going full cottages. For now, it needs to whip to catch up on buildings so 1 cottage is fine so that it pays for itself.

What I would do with this city: stop chopping forests. All of them except the silk. Build Forest Preserves and National Park. This gives 8 free specialists, a pig and a deer for even more. I would also not improve the grass tiles, not road them and hope for forest spreads. If we're lucky we can get another 5 forests here = 13 free specialists!

If people agree to the purposes of the cities, should I add notes in-game?

Go ahead and remove the old markers/add new ones.

 

[kossin]

I like this suggestion pretty well at the face of it. Then I got to thinking, 3-pop whipping will cost us 12 + 11 + 10 = 33 . 7 turns of 2 :unhealth: is 14 . Should I not whip, then? I honestly don't know.

It's your call really, and the rest of the team's. We lose 2 grass mines and a scientist which will regrow soon. The other advantage is for culture bonus in our 2nd ring (once 3rd border pops, we get +20 cpt in 2nd ring), we might lose the rice otherwise (56/43 culture)

Why?

Great Scientist:

Writing
Mathematics
[B]Scientific Method
Physics[/B]
Education
[B]Printing Press[/B]
Fiber Optics
Computers
Laser (BTS)
The Wheel
Alphabet (BTS)
Philosophy
Chemistry
Fission
Fusion
[B]Optics[/B]
Paper
[B]Astronomy[/B]
Biology
Electricity
Flight
Genetics
Compass
Satellites
Aesthetics (BTS)
Sailing
Alphabet (Vanilla & Warlords)
Calendar
Medicine
Ecology
Advanced Flight (BTS)
Iron Working
Metal Casting
[B]Engineering[/B]
Steam Power
[B]Liberalism[/B]
Agriculture
Masonry
Bronze Working
[B]Machinery[/B]
Gunpowder
Refrigeration
Superconductors (BTS)
Rocketry
Fishing
Combustion
Plastics
Composites
Stealth (BTS)
Mining
Military Science (BTS)
Radio
Meditation
Drama
Theology
Music
Civil Service
Democracy
Corporation
Communism
Economics
Hunting
Archery
Animal Husbandry
Construction
Robotics
Monotheism
Mass Media
Horseback Riding
Replaceable Parts
Rifling
Artillery
Future Tech

Machinery opens Printing Press, Optics, Astronomy and a bunch of other bulbs before Lib.

Hmm, how much of a chance would there be of getting a GSpy? I guess this depends on how much of the slider is filled up already, etc. Also, we maybe could improve our chances of getting a GS by getting the Lolco GS second (since the pollution would be a smaller portion of the then-larger pool).

Cow misser = 0 pollution
Lolco = 37% pollution, but it'll go lower with more scientists

I think we should piss off more of them. Worst case, they all attack us, and then we have the story of being killed by a bunch of Mansas.

Problem is only Orange and peach border us, so the likeliness of a DoW is reduced for the others. I would still like to stay in the tech trade circle with 2~3 of them though.
What I'm really hoping for is one of them DoWs us (Peach) and then bribes a bunch of them

That's a discouraging, but probably realistic assessment. Again, doors open more if we piss off enough of them to DOW on us.

I know

 

[mlinneak]

Don't forget as well that I agreed to open borders with Red. I didn't see any comments on whether we wanted to allow his religion to spread to us. Unless it benefits us directly, I would be hesitant to allow it because it is such a huge benefit to Red by increasing his shrine income. I did see some good trade routes were made with Red but you may want to close borders again before switching back out of theocracy. Or maybe this isn't even that important? IDK...

 

[Meerk]

What I would do with this city: stop chopping forests. All of them except the silk. Build Forest Preserves and National Park. This gives 8 free specialists, a pig and a deer for even more. I would also not improve the grass tiles, not road them and hope for forest spreads. If we're lucky we can get another 5 forests here = 13 free specialists!

That's a very interesting strategy. I have never tried it. My initial thought was biology is a long way off, but the benefit is huge once we reach that point. I am certainly game to try it.

 

[Meerk]

Don't forget as well that I agreed to open borders with Red. I didn't see any comments on whether we wanted to allow his religion to spread to us. Unless it benefits us directly, I would be hesitant to allow it because it is such a huge benefit to Red by increasing his shrine income. I did see some good trade routes were made with Red but you may want to close borders again before switching back out of theocracy. Or maybe this isn't even that important? IDK...

How much of a benefit is it to him? Isn't it a total of like 16 gpt from our cities if they all get his religion? Or is the formula more complex than that? IMO, it doesn't seem worth changing our civics away from whatever we find most desirable. But then again, what do I know?

 

[Meerk]

Machinery opens Printing Press, Optics, Astronomy and a bunch of other bulbs before Lib.

Oh, duh. Of course. Thanks.

Problem is only Orange and peach border us, so the likeliness of a DoW is reduced for the others. I would still like to stay in the tech trade circle with 2~3 of them though.

I agree, the opportunity cost in tech trading is pretty high. We are getting a lot of mileage out of that.

 

[kossin]

8 cities = 24gpt if he puts Wall Street in the shrine city. It really isn't that big imo, gives us more gpt to trade for. More religions make culture easier though should we go that route.
Biology is indeed far, but I think that city will be so great when it comes that growing a few small cottages rather than whipping infra and then using a ton of specialist (NE can go here) that the waiting is not that costly. In any case, we can close borders as there are already plenty of good trade routes with the others - we're only getting 1 from Red worth 3, so at most we'll lose 2, but likely only 1

Forgot: Frosty should work the silver, fish and coast to accelerate growth. Once we hit size 4 we can whip the lighthouse and then it'll grow faster.

There's a warrior in Peach Mansa's culture to be deleted. Should save 2gpt.
And a sentry chariot near Lakhama (Peach) that can be set on auto-explore if you don't want to control him manually.

 

[Meerk]

I am about ready to play my turn, but I noticed something when I opened the tech screen. You probably have thought of this, but why is engineering not preferred to liberalism? I must have misunderstood the list, I guess.

Anyway, about to start.

 

[Meerk]

Pre-turn

Deleted 2 warriors per Kossin's suggestion. Also began moving more military towards last barb city. It should arrive at about the same time as the settler (barb city is still size 1).

Also MMed a few cities per discussion. Decided to whip Aqueduct in Horice since we are about to switch to caste.

Revolted to Caste/Pacifism. Switched Cow-misser & Lolco to Scientist heaven. 5 in Cow-misser and 6 in Lolco.

Turn 1: 640 AD

Blue Mansa made Sistine Chapel.

Otherwise nothing exciting.

Turn 2: 660 AD

Adjusted scientists down in Lolco, and up in Cow-misser. Goal is to get GS in Cow-misser first.

Turn 3: 680 AD
Zzz

Turn 4: 700 AD
Trade deer for clams with Orange.


Turn 5: 720 AD
Frosty granary -> lighthouse.
Settler arrives in spear'D. Starting on Jaguar.

Naturally, barb city grows to 2 now.

So, I take it the old fashioned way.

Spoiler :

I am a little unclear what to do with this settler. There is a marginal city spot on the coast next to the desert. Is destroying settler preferable? I will send him to the coast, and he will get there shortly before the end of my turn. (I will just skip him twice and let the group decide.)

Turn 6: 740
Found a nasty spy near Cow-misser. How dare they!

Microed cow-misser to finish GS next turn, and Lolco no to get one.

Started a bit of research. Also ran 10% in order to see demographics on everyone.

Turn 7: 760

GS in Cow-misser. Bulbed towards education. Put enough people back to work that we aren't starving, but left a number of scientists in. we will want the GPP eventually, and this is the best time for it.

Turn 8: 780
Yellow demands 270 in tribute. I send him packing. (Sorry I forgot the screenie! )

Yellow finished spiral minaret. Yayoi pacified. I start on a work boat, since we can pop borders using artist.

Turn 9: 800
zzz

Turn 10: 820

We are hopeless.

Spoiler :

Turn 11: 840
Education in.

Spoiler :

Of course, Kossin is right and Lib can be (largely) bulbed:

Spoiler :

Noone else has education yet:

Spoiler :

So, things look good for us getting lib!

In other news, here's the potential site for another city. Thoughts?

Spoiler :

End of turn stuff:

Maps:

Spoiler :

Demographics:

Spoiler :

Cities: With thanks to mlineak for the idea! I have a new appreciation for how much work that is.

Spoiler :

I have not yet switched civics, but I think we should. At the very least, we probably want to resume slavery. Also, do we want to do something instead of pacifism?

 

[kossin]

Engineering requires Machinery.
Good luck!

Edit: report was not up when I posted the above

Looks good!
Can't look at it tonight but I'll check it tomorrow sometime. Since no one has Education, a case can be made into making an Academy which will be better in the long run. If there are things to whip, I'd revolt now to Slavery+OR , whip for 5 turns, and we can always go back to generate a few more GS/GM.
Another option is triggering a Golden Age and popping another 2 quick GS.

Since Horice is working several Cottages, maybe we can turn it into a late-bureaucracy capital?

1. Slibluhr
2. Gumbolt
3. cripp7
4. mlinneak
5. Meerk - Just played
6. mjg5591 - UP!
7. kossin - On deck!

 

[kossin]

Just looked at the save:
Let's spread Judaism everywhere, it's the AP religion! Priority build = jewish temple then monastery. Moreover, Peach is somewhat close to a Religious victory but it's very unlikely he can get it, he'd need more friends.

Let's keep making culture multipliers in Horice.

I would delete the settler, there's 2 un-irrigable green tiles (we would have to farm via Pig Farm thus getting less forests although come biology a farm is about as good as a forest preserve I guess), a spice and some coast, it really isn't a grand city. It could always contribute somewhere down the line but it'll take forever to grow with +3 food surplus.

We really don't have great land for cottaging, I think our best bet is either improvements and improvements. It'll still allow for whipping and also we can do quick transfers between economy and military as needed.
That being said, an Academy in Horice could still prove useful for the culture fight. Bulb or academy... let's see what the team thinks?
I would take Nationalism from Lib. Even if we can't build the Taj, we can draft, use the extra 25%EP per city and build Jails. That's a pretty good source of tech if you ask me, especially given the fact that Peach is the largest AI and will likely fly ahead in tech.

We're really not gaining that much from Bureaucracy. Free Speech will aid the culture war for Horice. We can make a quick switch to Nationhood if we ever run the EP slider.

We need to watch Red and Blue Mansa, their culture are starting to shot up.

I checked the bribe options and there are a few possible, for example:

Keep in mind:
1) this won't do much
2) we need to bulb if we do this right now
3) we lose some trade opportunities (we can get Gunpowder from yellow and DR from a few of them)
4) Prices will be cheaper after the first bribe
5) the AP will come to bite us in the bottom with a peace resolution.
6) we have to defy AP resolutions so could be a problem (we also can't agree to DoW)

It could be nice to start some hatred in between them, reduce the techpace a bit for some of them, make more enemies for us, but can also decrease the chance we get DoW'd since it's already not that likely.

I think I'd bulb Liberalism, get Nationhood, trade for Gunpowder, start a war with Education between Orange and Blue in 3 turns, after the next vote. Then bribe whatever else war that is possible.

 

[mjg5591]

Looks like I am up. Going to look over last few rounds as I was busy. I'll prolly play tonight or early tomorrow morning.