Time to move away from Civ.

[Tony.Uk]

Heres another observation. Hanibal building settler 5 turns to go, completed a corn farm and completes settler immediately. Did not switch any working tiles. City Size 2 next size 2 more turns. What the heck I have never been able to do this without BW and he does not have it nor AH, it is 2280BC. Where have the missing 5 turns gone? I am watching a selected city mainly a leading one and watching carefully for any strange changes. This sort of anomoly is annoying. He did not switch production either as I checked to see if he had the settler, which he does and now starting barracks. You should not be able to lose 5 turns on a settler with BW/IW or AH at this stage of the game.

 

[Yarnosh]

Heh, I think the AI used to cheat in older releases of Civ, but not in IV. For example, it always annoyed the hell out of me that the AI seem to always know exactly which one of my cities was least defended even though there was no way at that time to tell what was defending it without first attacking.

 

[Tony.Uk]

Watch hannibal's settler 7 turns to go, two more turns then 0. No wonder the AI gets settlers out so quickly. This must be a fault. Thouogh I expect someone will think of a reason for this. Obviously this is just a test game.

 

[Julian Delphiki]

Seems like whipping to me..

 

[r_rolo1]

I checked the save: Hannibal has BW. Probably a chop.

 

[Yarnosh]

I read this thread from the beginning and I am having the same kind of frustration with CivIV BTS. What really is pushing me to the point of thinking it's an unbalanced game is something that I see just about every game... I can use a lot of resources building a big stack of units to attack a city and often the whole stack, despite promotions, gets whiped out by one or two defenders.

Taking a city is always hard. Defenders often have a 50% bonus in addition to the city culture bonus and possible terrain effects. I good thing to do is, whenever in doubt about the chances of successful attack, select your attacker, hold down the ALT key, and click on the target. It will tell you exactly what your chances of success are. THere must be something you're not taking into account. Never attack a city without first destroying its defences with catapults, for example. And never be afraid to sacrifice catapults/cannons to weaken defenders with collateral damage before attacking with your regular units.

The other thing... It's hard to understand the game in terms of what you should build and how it affects your chances. People say 'build cottages' but why? Where's the feedback in the game to show you the results of building cottages? I build lots of cottages by the way but don't often win.

My primary feedback, as simplistic as it might seem, is the percentages of research/gold. If I can keep my research at around 80 to 90%, no go negative in cashflow, and still be expanding, I know I'm doing pretty good. Cottages are are ESSENTIAL for this. Also get markets, grocers, and banks in all cities ASAP. You also have to make sure your cities are actually using the cottages. Just building them isn't enough. The city autoplanner will often prefer growth and pick food tiles and ignore your cottages. You have to go in there and make sure that cottages are always being used and always growing.

On default settings, playing Warload, 4 our 5 games are basically unwinable as far as I can see - the other guys crowd your borders and being aggressive won't work because you can't beat them back well enough without getting sucked into a long, drawn out war that kills your chances of winning anway.

Yes, long wars early on will kill your chances of winning. The secret is to recognized a threat to your expansion early on and squash it. Even if it is just one important city/location that you take. That can set the AI back quite a ways. Maintain closed borders and block their expansion if you can. If you find you are sharing a continent with just one AI, expand towards them and try to choke them off.

Also, steal their workers! That can be a big setback for them and a big boost for you early on. Once you have your neighbor crippled, you don't need to worry about taking them out right away. Just let them stay in the Bronze Age and come back with riflemen later and wipe them out when your economy is strong enough to support the new cities. Again, I find that you only really need to focus on your research rate to know if your economy is strong enough.

A good game in my view is game that has the information/feedback given to you in the game so you can improve. I just don't see enough information and, if it is a level playing field with the AI, I can't begin to understand why it is that I get whiped out most of the time if I attack or defend with largish stacks of promoted units. How on Earth can 20ish city attack promoted Riflemen get zapped by a couple of bowmen? It's quite ridiculous On the other hand, it would seem impossible to make enough units to properly attack/defend because you're economy would be whiped out long before there were sufficient units. Yet, strangly, the AI achieves it???? Not only does the AI achive one side of it (lots of units OR well developed culture and economy), it often achieves it in several ways. Even that would be ok if I could see how the AI did that but I can't because... not enough information.

One thing that sometimes frustrates me is how the AI consistently manages to build so many units AND build wonders and improvements. It seems like I'm always at the low end of the "Power" graph... especially early on. But it works out. I can use my units much smarter than the AI.

 

[Julian Delphiki]

I checked the save: Hannibal has BW. Probably a chop.

It's a whip, there is no worker chopping + population of Carthage goes -1.

 

[JBConquests]

I play on Noble and can win, but only sporadically. I realize, after reading this thread, that I definately do not expand fast enough. If I do expand fast, and my science drops to 50% or so, it isn't clear to me how to financially recover? (EDIT: I can recover, it just takes me 1/2 the game to do so) What keeps the AI from blowing right past me when I have such a poor science rate?

From what I have done in the past:
1. Build Market Places (I beeline for this)
2. Build courthouses (This comes a bit later)
3. Spread a religeon / Holy city builds special building via Great Prophet. (I don't often do this because I don't want to sign open borders. I use my borders to block the AI from getting good land.)

From what I read in this thread, I should:
1. Cottage heavily. (I don't do this today) Is this different from a cottage economy?
2. Go for courthouses earlier - possibly before going for Currency and Market places.
3. Use specialists manually? I currently let the governor manage them so I'm not sure how I would manage them myself effectively. One of the posts hinted that combining certain wonders with certain specialists will increase the odds of getting certain great persons. I'm not sure if this helps me financially or just research or what? I have read a thread somewhere on this forum concerning the benefits of a SE but I admit, it didn't click.

 

[Civsassin]

I play on Noble and can win, but only sporadically. I realize, after reading this thread, that I definately do not expand fast enough. If I do expand fast, and my science drops to 50% or so, it isn't clear to me how to financially recover? (EDIT: I can recover, it just takes me 1/2 the game to do so) What keeps the AI from blowing right past me when I have such a poor science rate?

From what I have done in the past:
1. Build Market Places (I beeline for this)
2. Build courthouses (This comes a bit later)
3. Spread a religeon / Holy city builds special building via Great Prophet. (I don't often do this because I don't want to sign open borders. I use my borders to block the AI from getting good land.)

From what I read in this thread, I should:
1. Cottage heavily. (I don't do this today) Is this different from a cottage economy?
2. Go for courthouses earlier - possibly before going for Currency and Market places.
3. Use specialists manually? I currently let the governor manage them so I'm not sure how I would manage them myself effectively. One of the posts hinted that combining certain wonders with certain specialists will increase the odds of getting certain great persons. I'm not sure if this helps me financially or just research or what? I have read a thread somewhere on this forum concerning the benefits of a SE but I admit, it didn't click.

The key is that you don't need to follow one "cookie cutter" strategy, but you need to have a plan to how you will keep you economy running while you expand. The plan should be based on circumstances and strategy.

- Some advocate going for the Colossus and Great Lighthouse, which both provide commerce bonuses.

- Others use the rush to CoL and put courthouses in your cities.

- Some go for Currency and put markets in their commerce cities.

- Some shoot for Calendar if they have good commerce resources that require plantations.

- It helps if you have in or near your capital or can find close by gold, siver, or gem resources. Go for Mining and The Wheel, and hook them up quickly.

- Go for an early wonder that gives you great prophet points. Settled Great Prophets provide +5 commerce.

- Go for Pottery ASAP and get cottages built.

- Spread religion.

- This is not all inclusive obviously.

The point is that there are several strategies for keeping your economy going early on for REX, and you will likely have to employ a combination of them to be successful. Upon starting your game, you will see the bonuses you have in your BFC, and you will know the bonuses your chosen civ and leader provide. Scout initially around your capital (and further later on) to determine what other bonuses are nearby. Consider what you know and learn and decide on a strategy to keep your economy up and running.

If you learn to do it this way, you will progress more quickly because you will not be tied to any specific strategy. You will learn to adapt to your unique circumstances.

Your specialists are much more powerful when they are micro managed. This comes down to specializing your cities. See the many articles on the SE for a description of how it works. SE can be either a stand alone strategy or combined with other strategties, but the SE is a bit more complicated to manage. However, learning it provides many benefits especially on higher levels.

 

[Supr49er]

The key is that you don't need to follow one "cookie cutter" strategy, but you need to have a plan to how you will keep you economy running while you expand. The plan should be based on circumstances and strategy...
- Go for Pottery ASAP and get cottages built.
...

Pottery needs Fishing or Agriculture AND the wheel. This is one reason why civs like Babylon, Egypt, France, Japan, Ottomans, and the Sumerians can research Pottery right away and begin to build cottages.

 

[Civsassin]

Pottery needs Fishing or Agriculture AND the wheel. This is one reason why civs like Babylon, Egypt, France, Japan, Ottomans, and the Sumerians can research Pottery right away and begin to build cottages.

That's a good point, and goes back to my original premise that the strategy shouldn't be cookie cutter do this or do that, but based on a variety of factors, including civ, leader, starting position, available resources, play style, etc.

 

[Gumbolt]

Looked at the save. Do you not like bronze working or something?

My strategy for this game.

Restart game.

Settle city. Build a settler straight off. Imperialist leader gets a bonus for settler production. You may want a warrior first. When you have 2 cities set about building workers in both. Your second city will arrive way before 3000bc.

When you have the 2 workers you can chop away forest like crazy for the next worker and a additional settler. When I have 4 workers i would go for the third settler. Barb warriors dont arrive till 2000bc or so. Animals wont enter your cultural borders. By 2000bc you will have 4 cities to grow and develop. Game on!!!!

Once you have 3-4 cities you can worry about irrigation, mining etc. You dont need a huge science commerce on noble at start. I would prioritise chopping over irrigation unless the food would provide a huge boost to city growth or settler production.

How about a save of the starting year?

 

[Tony.Uk]

He only has one worker, and he is not chopping, so its a whip. Then the number of turns should go from 5 to 1, not straight down to zero. This has always been my experience of whipping with various leaders.

 

[Gumbolt]

Have a look at this save from 2075bc on Monarch settings from a previous game.

I have 2 cities built. A settler near the copper resource for my third city and 2 more settlers being built. I have 5 workers servicing my 2 cities and chopping most of the forest away.

Once I hook up the copper I will build 6-7 axemen and take out the pesky AI capital below me. By 1000bc it will be gone. I will also try to nab stone henge the Oracle. Its looking to be a strong attacking start.

My only issue with this game is the land is really poor. Still it shows that by 1700bc or so you can have 4-5 cities up and running. Only danger is barbarians and need for warriors in my cities. Helpfully i am surrounded by water on both sides so less of a risk. So much for all the AI bonuses.

 

[Brian Boru]

Civ4 is a complex game, it takes quite a while for it all to start to make sense, ie when you know how things interact and inter-relate. An approach I found useful when learning was to switch off various elements and play a few mini-games focused on 1-2 aspects. So eg to focus on how the economy and research works, try this:

Go into "Custom Game";
Switch off Barbarians;
Switch on Always Peace;
Switch off Tech Trading;
Select a Financial leader;
Select Small or Standard map size;
Select [Quick or] Normal speed.

Now the only issues you have to deal with are building your cities and getting your economy and research going. Play 100-150 turns, then restart from the 4000BC auto-save and try a different approach.

Do this as often as you like, try it with different maps, then try a non-Financial leader. See if you can have 5-6 cities by 0AD, with your science slider at 60% or higher, and a positive cashflow. Cottage economy is the easiest one to play, and especially good for a Financial leader, so focus on that for now.

Later on, you want to hone your military skills? Turn on Raging Barbarians, Always War, and play Tokugawa

 

[Gumbolt]

He only has one worker, and he is not chopping, so its a whip. Then the number of turns should go from 5 to 1, not straight down to zero. This has always been my experience of whipping with various leaders.

One worker is not enough for 2400bc for me. I wouldnt try and copy the way the Ai plays too much. Its not always a winning strategy. One of the reasons an early war works is the Ai simply cant handle it. How often do you get a stack of 8-9 axemen coming over your borders around 1400bc?

 

[bloodfin]

my diagnosis: you have over-cived. I'd advise taking a break with Med2, its a cracking game. But civ is good in small doses. I once played civ straight 4 months, and with just about anything, gets boring. I only play at warlord/noble 2, but i enjoy it. The AI might cheat due 2 difficulty, but it could b a bug. Still, U WILL RETURN! but its always nice 2 take a break.

 

[jackdog]

All the complexity aside surely its about what fun for you. For me I am only satisfied by winning at as high a level as I can and if thats hard and I get beat up for ages when I move so be it, I guess I am a sucker for punishment. I played chess against my elder brother for about 10 years before I could beat him from time to time, i though it was worth it and thats what floats my boat, but I am unsure I would call many of the games fun. I guess I am just very goal driven and if it takes 10 years fine, i'll see you then and then and only then will I be satisfied, plainly I need a therapist

if you want fun then play at the level you find most fun, win or lose, and who cares what level that is. Some may simply not enjoy the game, plainly they are mad, but I guess it takes all sorts.

My problem is not playing its trying not to play. This is my first evening cold turkey as I really have to get some of my academic work done, and look where I am, bloody here, but I am not playing at least....I guess that makes the forum some kind of nicorette patch equivalent, perhaps i'm not cold turkey after all...

make war or peace but have fun, or at least get a sense of achievement..

 

[Mivo]

I guess I am just very goal driven and if it takes 10 years fine, i'll see you then and then and only then will I be satisfied, plainly I need a therapist

No, certainly not, but perhaps re-focusing on why you play games might not be such a bad idea. I was a bit like that with Go (the Chinese board game), and at some point I realized that I spent too much time trying too hard to get better even when I lost game after game and was frustrated (I'll say that it was off-set by other days where I won game after game). Then I asked myself why exactly I'm doing that, and that changed my perspective. Interestingly, my Go got better after that, even though I played much less and only for fun.

Ever since I pretty much approach all my recreation activities from that angle and just skip the entire competitive stuff whenever possiblel, as I figured it's a major source of stress. That's also why I prefer playing Civ against the AI (can only win on noble so far). I like to improve, but have no desire to "best" or beat other people.

I guess it's the whole "the journey is what matters" way of thinking. Works for me, but people are different. I just cut down on ambition, and that made me feel overall better and more relaxed.

 

[JBConquests]

The key is that you don't need to follow one "cookie cutter" strategy, ...

This is probably something I need to learn how to do better. I currently am playing custom games with everything set to Random that can be set to random (including what civ I am), raging barbarians, and random personalities or whatever that setting is. Back when I chose my starting civ, and all the other settings, I could win more often than not. Now, I seem to lose more often than that.

I definately need to learn how to play to my current situations strengths. I admit I have a handful of cookie cutter strategies, that are good at certain game types and tend to follow a couple most of the time.

I am guessing I am weakest at being the warlike civ's and expansive/christmatic combination. I am really, really good at culture wins (and of course space race wins since it seems to be the easiest)