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Time victory seems broken?

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by tripleducky, Mar 10, 2018.

  1. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    I think it's wrong. It does not give a balanced feeling in lower difficulties. It makes difficult to share experiences from players playing different difficulties, as each difficulty has it's own balance. Cultural victory is awfully easy in lower difficulties compared to the other conditions, and that breaks balance. It's not a fine thing to develop a game that you can only fully enjoy after a hard training when the player is able to move to King.

    The correct way to handle this would have been to give bonuses/maluses only to the human player, so AI plays always the same for every difficulty level (maybe improving AI logic at harder difficulties, as in G big idea, but keeping the same bonuses), but Firaxis did it the other way. The only fix I can figure out is tweaking science and policy costs so they scale based on difficulty, in a way that science victory is achieved by AI at approximately the same turn for all difficulties.

    Also, it seems that a game that streches longer than 400 turns is considered too long, but here you are at warlord and beyond, a difficulty geared to beginners, where you easily reach 500 turns at least. Clearly too long for newcomers. I can do it faster, but I know what I'm doing. It is counterintuitive, having noobs play longer games.

    Seriously, I had to make efforts to not win by tourism in order to see how fast I can achieve this science victory with Songhai. It never happened to me at King. You seem to think that only time victory is unbalanced at lower difficulties. It's not. Culture is too easy, Domination is easier than normal, and Science is the hardest one.
     
  2. Workerspam

    Workerspam Prince

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    I don't think science victories are "harder" at lower difficulties. They take longer to achieve (in game turns) and you'll often inadvertently achieve a culture victory but that just makes science victories at low levels rarer, not more difficult. Turn off culture victory and I'm sure you'll get that science win no problem; you'll just find you're back to hitting "next turn" until you achieve it.

    And I'm not saying only time victory is unbalanced; I'm saying I don't think victory balance matters at lower difficulties. Lower difficulties are for learning the game and low pressure fun. Culture and domination are the quickest (in terms of game turns) victory conditions you can achieve if you know what you're doing; since culture victory takes less effort it will always be the easiest path to victory until you play at difficulty level that properly challenges you.

    If you really want to go for a science victory once you can routinely win culture victories at lower difficulties you have options: you can disable culture victories, or deliberately handicap yourself to avoid tourism.

    Or, you know, step up to a level that challenges you .
     
  3. Moi Magnus

    Moi Magnus Emperor

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    That's not really the good way of seing it. Assuming that warlord is the good difficulty level for you (let say you win half of the time, and the AI win half of the time), are victory condition balanced ?
    What you say tend to shows that you culture victory is far more achievable than science victory. So there is a balance problem.
     
  4. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    That’s actually the fundamental of CV though...you are competing against your opponent yields. Where is in SV you compete against an absolute scale of science needed.

    I guess you could lower the human tourism by an amount equal to the warlord penalty to somewhat balance the books
     
  5. Workerspam

    Workerspam Prince

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    I guess my big picture take is the OP lost a time victory on Warlord difficulty setting, and tu_79's proposed solution (short of a major change to the handicap system) would appear to change the OP's outcome to a loss to the AI around turn 400 via one of the other victory conditions. I don't see how that's a better or more desirable experience for new players. Culture victories may be easier to achieve on lower difficulties but only once you understand the system.

    This might have some merit, though I would worry about a situation wherein I can potentially win a culture victory on Emperor on turn 290 but can't achieve it on Warlord until turn 350 due to player handicaps.
     
  6. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Here you are. Science victory at turn 397. I got distracted when all civs declared war on me and went bananas, destroyed a few cities, puppeted others, and won. It took me four full evenings. I need a rest.

    https://imgur.com/a/SWCcq

    EDIT. Disclaimer, I'm not the best player around, not even a good one :D
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2018
    LukaSlovenia29 likes this.
  7. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    But at least all civs DOW'd you. +1 for my despair mechanic.

    G
     
    ElliotS likes this.
  8. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    Thanks for doing the legwork for me. Well done. Also great to hear dispair mechanic is working.
     
  9. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    What people don't seem to get is that I'm pretty sure the only way you get a faster culture victory on easier difficulties is if you're playing a much lower difficulty. If you have a player who was challenged at that difficulty I think it would come at the appropriate time. It's very difficult for good players to test this sort of thing.
     
  10. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Yep, that works. And it's really a distraction, easy to lose focus.

    I don't say my suggestion is the only one that can solve balance across difficulties, but please, take a look at this.
     
  11. tripleducky

    tripleducky Chieftain

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    Well I guess I've got a lot to learn. Your science income is obviously way higher than mine was which is kind of what I was hoping to see. I am still struggling to figure out where I am going wrong because in regular civ 5 and 6 it is so obvious how to achieve science victory. I feel like I must be missing something important that isn't just sub-optimal strategy. Like I did something NOT-optimal. I know in CIV 6 it feels a lot like 7-8 city is best cost-benefit ratio for tall vs. wide, achieving which makes a big difference (in my casual experience). I don't actually know what the ratios are like with this mod installed, or if there truly is a ratio. I really wish I had one of you guys to sit over my shoulder and critique my play style. Could probably watch a play through video or something, but I find myself nodding off (literally) while watching them. I don't have any hardcore civ buddies. Probably am a hopeless variety gamer for the rest of my life. :(
     
  12. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    There are a few science victory run-throughs posted around here- give them a look.

    G
     
  13. ashendashin

    ashendashin King

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    You'll have to get your head around VP being an overhaul. Everything ties together really well so you're not limited to a singular playstyle for whatever victory. Basically, READ NI- upstanding gentleman, READ. You're always looking at numbers in this game anyhow. May as well figure out how they all tie together.
     
  14. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Me too. Those are 'let's try' videos, played by casual players. Truly masters rarely have the time to edit such videos. If you want to learn from the best, look at photo journals, there are a few around here. But you'll learn to play as them. I prefer to discover my own way, it's more fun. One of the best advices I was given was this: "Do the math!". This is the only way to make an educated decision. You may choose to build more units in a less optimal way, but for a safer game, but now you know what you are giving away for that instant boost. The other good advice is: "Do only the things that put you into your chosen victory path". It's useless trying to win diplo and science at the same time, but at the early game, when you don't know which victory type you will commit to, you may be open to more choices.

    Of course, for any of those advices to work, you need to know the rules and the content. For this you can only practice. A lot. I've been playing for two years and still don't know everything. That's good news, isn't it?

    Going Tradition with Songhai? Delaying culture? Don't know, I was a bit lucky with my monopoly, that helps.

    There's not a truly optimal ratio. It comes to how safe you want to play. Safer, but slower. It's a decision you have to make depending on how aggressive your neighbours are (or how aggressive you want to be).
     
  15. tripleducky

    tripleducky Chieftain

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    seriously how do you have ~6000 tech at that turn. I'm at that turn now in my game (prince) and I have ~1500 with a happy productive empire with 7 cities. I'm on par with the ai. Is there some serious multiplier I don't know about? I followed most of the advice I received here.

    https://imgur.com/pzGCI9a

    I'll admit I got off to a pretty bad start. I archer rushed my neighbor and won (he's gone. go me!) but it felt like it destroyed my economy doing it. In this game I have the highest number of technologies but in every other way I'm losing. But I still don't understand how your number is getting soooo high. I'm rushing every science building. How does the number get that high at all?
     
  16. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    This is what I'm saying. There's a million little things that you will realize are inefficient as you play. Pay attention to your actions and figure out what's been wasted or what could have been done better. It's hard to describe, but you'll figure it out if you focus on improving your play and take any ego out of the equation. Tu didn't start as a good player, they became a good player with a lot of practice.
     
  17. Moi Magnus

    Moi Magnus Emperor

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    First, lets talk in "science per city". You have ~200 science per city, he has ~300 science per city.

    My first guesses on how does it have that much science are:
    1) The corporation that gives A LOT of science.
    2) Better infrastructure in cities, or better specialist management.
     
  18. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    With every city you get (N - k) yields. More cities, more yields. Also an increase in tech cost by 10%. If you can make another city as strong as the others, every city is more raw power. Problem is that you usually cannot, as new cities take their time to be profitable. Unless you have a way to make those small cities build faster, and this is what I did. Jesuit Education Reform lets you faith-purchase scientific buildings, and boosts them too. I let big cities build their Public Schools, and faith purchased them in the weak cities. Also, I took Order ideology, where one of its policies is 'Free Research Labs in all cities', this is a good reason for not delaying culture. Synagogues give a good 10% to science on WLTKD, so I try to be always at those days. Build spaceship factories in the cities with highest science yield. Build factories and power centrals, in the secondary cities so when you switch to science production, the production of said cities is high (it's also useful to achieve the world congress projects, such as the international space station).

    EDIT. Side question. Have you read what Rome abilities are? The most impressive and hidden one is that you are able to conquer cities while keeping all the buildings but walls, including unique buildings. Korea has an unique University. You should let Seowong build it, and then conquer, if not even earlier.


    And that makes me an experienced player, but sadly, not a skilled one :(
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2018
  19. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    You're a little too hard on yourself. I know you don't play Deity, but you're clearly not a noob.
     
  20. Workerspam

    Workerspam Prince

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    As others have said it's most likely a lot of little sub-optimal things that add up over the course of the game. For example, you went with Authority as your first policy tree. The only :c5science: from Authority is from killing units and founding/conquering cities. You have a total of 7 cities and 11 units at a late point in the game. How much :c5science: did you get over the course of this game from going Authority? Compare that to the other two trees:
    • Tradition: 3:c5science: in captial, 1:c5science: for every council and herbalist, extra scientist specialist, 10% more science in your capital.
    • Progress: :c5science: every time a citizen is born in your capital, 3:c5science: for every city connection
    For how you ended up playing your game that's likely a ton of science you left on the table. Do a similar examination for decisions that affect culture, gold, growth, specialists, build order, wonders, city states, trades, etc., many of which interact and effect the others, and you likely have a ton of areas you can improve. The positive takeaway is this complexity is what helps make the game so re-playable.

    As a start I would recommend avoiding Authority in future games unless you plan to do a lot of fighting; particularly when you're learning the systems you're usually much better off going Progress or even Tradition. They simply provide simpler long term benefits.
     

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