Timetable: Mongolian War

[Strider]

It seems fairly obvious that citizen mood is turned against the Mongolians, and war seems to be inevitable. However, when do we go to war (if we do goto war at our own choosing)?

Also, what type of war should we lead? Should we attempt to completely wipe the Mongolians out? Capture only a few choice cities?

What about military allies?

Something else that is new in Civ IV, do we want to just skip war entirely with the Mongolians and try getting someone else to declare war on them?

 

[Oldbus]

I'm in general agreement with the call for war, but before I vote 'Yes' I'd like to make sure we have a few other things cleared up before we decide when and where.

What are our aims? Some possible aims:

• to hit Mongolia before we get hit. Not very convinced by this as Civ 4 seems to give plenty of advantage to defenders and Genghis seems to be relatively friendly in the short-term.
• to prevent getting choked in on our continent. Iron and food resources (and possibly marble) await us to the south. The longer we wait, the stronger those Mongolian cities will be.
• Hem in one of rivals and weaken him.
• We think Genghis' head would look good on a pole (hey, it's as good a reason as any )

What would then satisfy those aims: perhaps capturing Old Sarai and the probable city to the south east. See:


If those are our aims, then we need a strategy for that and the timing will presumably depend on units available. I won't cover that here.

While we don't need a full 'exit strategy' yet (unlike real life we can stop and rethink at any point), I do think we need to define some points at which we will definitely stop and think things over. Eg if we aim for capturing 2 cities:

• after capturing the 2 cities. Are things going well enough we can consider sweeping those Mongol hordes into the sea? Maybe we've had enough?
• are things going more slowly than expected? How long should we wait before failing to capture the 2 cities before rethinking?
• we are getting pounded. What force do we think is reasonable to continue the attack on each city. If we fall below that minimum then we should rethink

 

[robboo]

As SoW.....

The primary goal of the limited war is Old Sarai. Anything else is bonus. However if you look at the map in Oldbus's post a logical stepping stone would be the cities of Turfan and the other unknown city to the East. The capability of us to capture those depends largely on what is defending those two cities.

Other things that we will do besides capturing a city or three, is the spearman(s) and a chariot(s) will plunge down towards the mongolian capitol and pillage towns and villages to get us some gold. This will allow the science rate to be increased. And draw away some of the reinforcements for the other cities. We will also capture a Mongolian worker that is currently in our lands or attempt to...depends on where he jumps to when we declare war.

 

[BCLG100]

I know i ask this everytime the mongol war comes up but do they have horses hooked up? if so is it worth sending a chariot round the back to pillage this when the war starts?

 

[robboo]

They do not have horses hooked up..nor or they getting them in trade, nor do they have copper, nor do they have iron.

When you go to the diplo screen..our copper adn horses are there for us to trade to them. Since we do not have iron hooked up and if they had iron..their iron resource even if its just one would also be on their side to trade to us. Therefore..they have no horses, no copper and no iron....only archers and warriors.

 

[GeorgeOP]

I don't think we should ever wipe them out. We need them to continue to breed so we have a ready source of slaves. It costs too much for most citizens to breed them ourselves.

But we need to stop this expansion thing they seem so intent on. I don't care much about some deaths of our troops. If they allow themselves to die, it is thier fault for being weak.

 

[Tubby Rower]

nvrmind... didn't realize that I had voted in the drama poll and it will be done.

I think that the exit strategy should be to take the two cities then sue for peace and play defense. 3 axes/swords will definately take Old Saria. I'm not sure whats in the other city.

If possible, it would be nice to save the axes for the inevitable defense posture that we will eventually take.

 

[DaveShack]

I would like to see the timetable be set by an estimate of when Old Sarai will grow to size 2, and on Mongolia's acquisition of better units (if ever).

One urgent comment, don't use units inside another civ's borders under an open borders agreement to enter the war zone directly. I've noticed that world leaders don't like to be taken advantage of.

 

[robboo]

Old Sarai...is bringing in 4 food, 2 are being used, that leaves 2. It takes 33 to grow to size 2 so in 16-17 turns it will grow. Someone want to check my numbers...also assuming we stopped on turn zero of its growth.

In that amnount of time we will have enough of a force to take out Old Sarai and at least one other city if not 2 cities.

Dave all of our forces will come from neutral territory or our own territory. The land set up forces this for this particular attack into the 3 eastern most cities.

Mongolia can have horses by capturing one Russian city or Iron if they build another city. We should strike soon if anythign to beat Russia to the punch.

 

[ravensfire]

A suggestion - the Assembly is the only entity that can declare War, but that can be a bit cumbersome with planning, etc.

I propose that we post a poll for the declaration of War against the Mongols with the following conditions:
-- The poll is considered approval by the Assembly.
-- The timing for the declaration is made by the SoS and SoW acting in concert.
-- Prior to any declaration, the SoW must present their plans to the Assembly for approval.
-- This authority ends at the end of the current term.

This gives us, the Assembly, some immediate input into the idea of a war. It also gives the Assembly some check over the execution of the war, but still gives the planners much greater flexibility.

Sound good?

-- Ravensfire

 

[Vind2]

About dragging other Civs in; I think we should hold off on that. If the Mongals start losing cities to other civs it will strengthen the other civ. They may be future enemies. Those cities would be easier to take from a weaker Mongolia than another civ. If the situation becomes dire then when may have no choice.

 

[robboo]

ravensfire..poll now or after the TC.

Based on Dave thread about wha tto do raze or keep..I think we shoudl poll now. Since you are censor...do you mind setting it up to be all official so one of us (ME) doesnt screw it up.

 

[GeorgeOP]

Yes, because if we are just going to raze the cities we should declare war now. Please post your poll, but also set up a second poll to see if the citizens want to go to war now. The reasons are listed in another poll; destroy the Mongolian city and plant our settler at Site Beta (which she was two turns from anyway).

 

[ravensfire]

A poll to determine if the Assembly wishes to go to war with Mongol has been posted here. This poll uses my proposal above.

-- Ravensfire, Censor

 

[Pajka]

About dragging other Civs in; I think we should hold off on that. If the Mongals start losing cities to other civs it will strengthen the other civ. They may be future enemies. Those cities would be easier to take from a weaker Mongolia than another civ. If the situation becomes dire then when may have no choice.

Not only that. If we take Russians in, the Mongolians might (even if it's very unlikely) take over Russian city and get the access to horses and start building Keshiks.
Well, anyway I think that Mongols won't be very tough, so we can deal with them easily by ourself.

 

[Rihiter]

Going to war with Mongols is quite obvious. First of all because they are week! They have no access to bronze, iron nor horses. Let us take this oportunity and spread our borders.

We should strike right after the popup of Old Sarai. Until then let us build swordsmans that we might strike with crushing power.

War should be fast. We should capture Old Sarai, Karakorum and Turfan. During our warfare we must prevent Mongols from obtaining access to iron near Ning-Hsia, two or three fast mowing units will do ( chariots ). Money flow from pillaged cities will suport our science, so we shouldn't be warried about our budget and maintain costs. After those three cities let us make peace and try to obtain some technology as a tribute.

After that Mongols will have two saparated cities which will be an easy prey in the future.

But we must be aware of streathing our borders to much. That is why we need courthauses and forbiden pallace ( which I would establish in Turfan ). That is why I call you, dear governors, let us change our direction in science!

One more thing... Why are we building spearmans??? It is quite obvious that our major enemy ( The Mongols ) don't have access to horses and they won't have it for a long time.