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Tips for jump from emperor to immortal

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by kristof123, Nov 10, 2019.

  1. kristof123

    kristof123 Chieftain

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    Hi guys. I will keep it short.

    Basically near 100% win rate on emperor but the jump to immortal is huge. I am constantly behind in techs and this means there is no way I can win wars with obsolete units , in the same breath forget about been first to research lib etc.

    Any tips?
     
  2. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    You should be able to out tech AI on immortal. You should mostly be winning lib race too. Going for techs like aesth can give you nice trade bait. Avoid IW early on.

    Micro, specialists, bulbing edu/lib.. Early expansion and chopping. Avoid too many roads early on.

    Good use of HA rushes when blocked in early on. (Pick yourt targets.)
    Gifting of resources early on to get AI to pleased.
    Monitoring trade deals for gold.
    Focusing on capital and cottages. Use of helper cities to develop cottages..
    Avoiding most buildings on Civ 4. Except granary/library. Maybe Barracks/stables in certain circumstances. That and forges. Rest are mostly useless unless you plan a long game. Monstary can be useful in capitals.
    Avoid large armies unless you are actually going to war. 1 warrior per city can be normal.

    Overall you need more focus on Micro and to keep a reasonable sized empire of 7-8 cities or have a break out strategy.

    Start a shadow game and let people advise. It's not actually that bigger jump. Yes more barbs and you get slight penalties but only 5-10% compared to Emperor.
     
    gavenkoa likes this.
  3. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    "there is no way I can win wars with obsolete units"

    This is just wrong. :)

    There are a few cases when technologically inferior units are really stopped. Like... swords (unsupported by catapults) against longbows.
    But in most cases, it's just about bringing overwhelming numbers.
    The AI is spending so much time and effort into infrastructure, city garissons, teching and expansion.
    If you focus your energy on an army, it's very much doable to just crush them.
    My tip is:
    Try to put yourself in the mindset of Monty or Shaka!
     
  4. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Even on immortal it's still possible to war with advantage. Right from start the AI has no real military tech advantage. If you beelien HBR and spam HA the AI should have no obvious answer if you cut off their metal.
     
  5. pi-r8

    pi-r8 Luddite

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    I like immortal because, even though the AI has lots of advantages, it's still reasonable to do almost any strategy. You can rush the AIs if you want, or play peacefully and build. You just can't do everything, ie, you can't axe rush and build the pyramids and win liberalism all at once (usually!). It's definitely possible to win liberalism (bulb philosophy and education) or win wars with obsolete units (use lots of siege). I think winning mostly just comes from a lot of little tiny micro decisions, which add up and compound over time.
     
  6. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    I think it was TMIT who said long ago something to the effect that the jump from Noble to Immortal is similar to the jump from IMM to Deity. In other words that last jump from IMM to Deity is huge. Still, you see many good Deity players around here that excel at that difficulty. Regardless, I remember myself that the going from Emperor to Imm had many growing pains at first. It's really the first difficulty that you pay for those small early mistakes. However, in reality IMM is really not much more difficult than Emperor once you learn. It's just that the flaws that exist in your gameplay is going to be felt much more at this level..

    It's better that we actually see some of your games to really understand what your flaws are, which could still be many even though you appear to win frequently on Emperor. One assumption I can make though, if you do win regularly on Emperor, is that you have played the game quite a while now and at least learned some key basic stuff about the game.

    Here's a few observations/tips I would make now though without actually being able to access your games:

    1) I already mentioned attention to detail, but one of the major things I had to learn in moving up to IMM is that gameplay needs to be more deliberate. Micro your units (especially early) and cities every turn. Pay attention each turn or most turns to diplomacy. In other words you can't just go through the motion so to speak, click stuff, end turns and expect success.

    2) If you have not figured this out already, the early game is vitally important in this game. A poor early game is going to kill you on the highest levels, whereas on those lower levels you might have some forgiveness to catchup later. If you want to learn now, my biggest key advice is focus your energy now on mastering the early game..the first 100 turns or so (assuming normal speed).

    3) Improve worker management and make better decisions on improvements. This plays into the early game comment, but the point here is that every early worker turn ..every one of them..is hugely important..so if you are having them do silly things this is going to hurt you on high levels.

    4) Tech path and tech trading. Make better decisions on your early tech path and setup good tech trades opportunities. On IMM you are simply not going to get away with teching stuff like Iron Working yourself (this is a big mistake less experienced players make..on well all levels). Understand what AIs prioritize tech wise (like IW) and tech things that you can trade around for stuff. A common approach on Imm is go straight to Alpha, or tech Aesthetics instead which is usually good trade bait once someone does get Alpha, which is usually relatively quick on IMM if you are on a map where you will meet several AIs early on.

    5) Great People: I'm going to guess on an assumption of probably two key things that are hurting you significantly right now on IMM. Early game is one I've already discussed. The other is Great People. I assume you will need to improve in both these areas. Great folks, especially Great Scientists early-mid and bulb strategies are hugely important to success on IMM+.

    6) Understand the AI, i.e., understand the leaders and their differences. That info is readily available here.

    7) Make better decisions on how you settle cities. Understand that city overlap and tile sharing is actually a good thing.

    8) If you have not picked this up yet, use binary research early. Don't jack with the slider or just let it hang at some X% between 0% and 100% beakers. Once you settle that first city and start running deficit research, run either 0% (max gpt) or 100% research...not in between...to fund the next tech. Likely sometime after Writing is in and you've settled 3 or 4 cities, you will probably max gold for a while as you build libraries using Aesths or Alpha as a placeholder.

    9) While not all starting caps are suited to Bureaucracy, in most cases you want to develop a nicely cottaged capital - with cottages growing on river grass or flood plains. Cap will have an early academy early from your first GS. Bureau cottage caps are one of the most powerful thing in the game. Often you will have overlapped cities, if possible, helping grow cottages for the capital.

    10) Don't just build stupid buildings. Another big bad habit many players have. They just want to build everything. Cities only need one building - a Granary - the most important building in the game. All other buildings are situational. Prioritize Currency (imo the most important tech in the game less BW) early either by teching it or trading for it. If cities have nothing better to do at the moment, then build wealth - or research if you don't have Currency yet. Otherwise, cities should be focused on expanding or killing somebody.

    11) Lastly, I assume you must have some experience with slavery/whipping now. However, the question is how effective you use the absolute strongest mechanic in the game. More than anything, effective use of whipping and whip overflow is key to success on highest levels.
     
    gavenkoa likes this.
  7. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi Prince

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    Some things that were revolutionary to my gameplay are
    a) deeper understanding of the whip/overflow mechanic
    b) making better use of libraries/academy/bureaucracy (includes waiting at 0% research until library/academy is finished, as @lymond already stated, also swapping cottage tiles in a way that the capitol or city with academy/oxford works the best tiles while being at 100% research
    c) giving your workers part-time-jobs, not just running from one end of the city to the other, but building a 1/4 cottage or half road in between, worker should always work or run and work, but not only run like an idiot (except jumping into a tile that consumes all movement)
     
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  8. kristof123

    kristof123 Chieftain

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    Just won my first game on Immortal thanks to you guys encouragement:lol: It reminded me of the first times I played on Monarch level. I was always barely keeping up and was forced into a domination victory with units either of the same era and or one generation behind.

    @Gumbolt shout out to you for suggesting HA rush, tried it for the first time and it is brutal, even against Longbows they still some what satisfactory.

    @krikav yep older units can do an alright job for example artillery with anti tank and sam infantry against gunships and modern armour. I used them while slowly and painfully teching robotics.

    @pi-r8 for sure you are 100% correct. I got into the habit of focusing on multiple game plays instead of sticking to one game play. It costs me dearly on Imoortal whilst I could still get away with it on Emperor.


    @lymond great advice. You made me reminisce on the days when I would play Monarch and would some times use a calculator to calculate the best policies for each turn. You are also spot on with your assesment, my game play has become totaly sloppy, I just build markets and unnecessary buildings while bribing the AI's to fight each other and when they exhausted I simply pick them off, this wont wprk for me on Immortal.
    It sounds interesting and new to post some games here and I wouldn't mind. You must know that I play on epic game speed and like Fredrick, Ghandi, Shaka, Saladin, Victoria and Augustus Ceasar. Most of all I love Shaka because on Emperor I almost always eliminate one of my neighbours completely with axemen and impi's if I find copper close by. With Shaka the game will have just recently been started and my empire already has 11-12 cities, Shaka is insane. Then I like Ghandi because getting Stonehedge(great prophets), founding Budism and founding Confucism from the oracle make an insanly stinking rich empire while taking my neighbours religion for diplomacy and on the side spreading my missionaries far and wide.

    @Tobiyogi yeah the slidder trick is something I even forgot about. I need to get back into the flow again.
     
  9. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Against longbow? Why not use HA against archers?
     
  10. kristof123

    kristof123 Chieftain

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    I tried out the HA rush for the first time and kept expanding untill the AI got Longbows, plus I was curious as to how efeective they are.

    By the way how exactly do you beeline horse back riding because it is an expensive tech. By beelining hbr one is forced to neglect important techs like writing etc. I got it through chopping the oracle.
     
  11. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Congrats on your first victory, kristof. As Gumbo mentioned, if you are facing LBs with HAs then something is wrong. Basically on IMM you should be able to take out at least one and possible two AIs with HAs, or at least make significant gains which it is all about. Still, HAs are only going to be valid for a short time on IMM. Granted at the tail end of some HA rushes I might an AI might just get Feud as I'm stomping them but you should rarely face them otherwise. Basically, Feud is the end of the HA era and time to focus on other things. My guess is you are not focusing enough early on setting this up properly.

    Honestly, I really enjoy Shaka myself. He's just really fun to play, IF you get nearby copper. However, although most of the leaders you mention are good, certainly Ghandi is, I recommend not limiting yourself to those leaders as there are many other great ones. Sal is not really very good for the human...poor traits (well, Spi is good), very poor starting techs, and meh uniques.

    I recommend trying to play normal speed for a while if you are going play games here.
     
  12. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    I don't see going for HAs as neglecting writing but it really depends on the land. If you have a good commerce resource like gold or gems that will usually do the trick to beeline HBR. Or you might grab pottery and lay a few cottages. Leader traits may factor too, like a Creative leader. For instance, Kublai and his Keshiks i'm generally going to beeline Writing and get scientists running in all cities with fast libraries. It just really all depends on the situation. Sometimes even if you have horses, HA rush just might not be the best option cause the land or leader sucks for it.'

    And you really need to focus on the tech path. Like you mentioned founding Buddhism with Ghandi. I would never do that.
     
  13. kristof123

    kristof123 Chieftain

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    @lymond which leaders do you like and why? I want to try them out whilst implenting the reasons(strategies,advantages) you like using them. I will also try playing them on normal speed.
     

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