TJ01: Famous Five

[Northern Pike]

I'd like to play.

Might the Babylonians be a good choice? In addition to the good things which have already been said about the religious and scientific traits for this variant, getting every available cultural building constructed at the earliest possible moment is going to be essential, and they're the kings in this respect. As for the Bowmen, they have the perverse advantage that because they aren't much good, we wouldn't lose anything by keeping them out of action until we wanted to trigger our GA.

 

[TedJackson]

Nice to see you here NP,

I've added you to the roster.

Babylon (Rel/Sci) is a possibility I'll organise a vote tomorrow and see where we are.


Ted

 

[TedJackson]

The three traits that seem to be the most appropriate are Militaristic, Religious & Scientific. That would give us the choice of:

Aztec (Mil/Rel) - UU Jaguar (AT)
Babylon (Rel/Sci) - UU Bowman (AT)
Celt (Mil/Rel) - UU Gallic Swordsman (AT)
Germany (Mil/Sci) - UU Panzer (IA)
Japan (Mil/Rel) - UU Samurai (MA)

So could everybody please vote for their favourite and 2nd favourite choices and we'll see where we stand after that.


Ted

 

[mad-bax]

If I hadn't played a couple of recent games as Japan I might have gone for them.

As for UU my thoughts are like this...
Aztec - too early
Babylon - too early
Celts - too expensive, but a little later and a fast unit. Needs iron.
Germany. If you even have to ask....
Japan, a little late, needs iron and also needs horses if we intend to upgrade to them Japan also starts with the wheel which would be a trading advantage.

I would vote Celts first and Babylon second. I have never played as Babylon - Now the thought has occurred to me I'm amazed.
But as long as it's not Aztec or Germany I'm happy.

 

[Northern Pike]

Our choice of civ and our choice of geography are intimately related, of course. If we're going to play on an archipelago map, my preferences are 1) Babylon, 2) Celts. If we choose continents or a pangaea, 1) Celts, 2) Babylon.

The Celts look very strong for our purposes, unless we choose a (probably) peaceful island start. The high shield cost of Gallics would be as much an asset as a handicap, since given that maintenance costs will always be an issue, we want a quality-not-quantity army. And with strong players facing regent-level AI civs, we should be able to conduct our early wars without losing many Gallics.

 

[a space oddity]

I like the Celts too, haven't played them much yet. I like the Japs as a second option and I wouldn't rule out the Germans, even if they have a late UU.
I guess we stand a good chance for a Wonder induced GA anyway with all the cities needing 20k.

 

[mad-bax]

Originally posted by a space oddity
I guess we stand a good chance for a Wonder induced GA anyway with all the cities needing 20k.

This is a good point. We will get a wonder induced GA, so panzers would be a good tool for leader generation later on. Decisions, decisions.

I still prefer Celts though, but put the Germans back on the list.

 

[TedJackson]

For quick reference here's a Wonder/Trait Matrix with Ancient Times highlight for Militaristic, Religious & Scientific.

Hope it helps.


Ted

 

[mad-bax]

Exactly.
Since we will have to build all the wonders, including th great wall it will be the great wall that triggers our GA. We had this discussion in MB1. We have to build it, even if it's only to stop the wonder cascade.

I am more convinced now that the Celts would be the best choice.
We can generate leaders easily from Mech Transport onwards. It's the AA and MA wonders that will elude us. So we need a strong unit with high surviveability to generate elites and leaders.

My vote for the Celts is firm now.

I also think that barbs should be turned off completely to slow the tech rate.

Edit:
What we really need is a plan to get all 5 cities to 35cpt by 1400AD. Work it out. It aint easy.

 

[Yndy]

My first choice would be Japan for a good Mil/Rel combo and the handy Samurai and my second choice Babylon for cheap culture. Sorry if I’m not following the thread closely, I have a lot of work.

I hope nobody wrote that before but I feel we should initiate and support multiple wars to discourage research. I believe that a relatively small stack of units should be able to hold the AI.

Edit: I'd still go for a pangaea map. At lest we would be able to monitor all the AI's.

 

[a space oddity]

Originally posted by Yndy

Edit: I'd still go for a pangaea map. At le[a]st we would be able to monitor all the AI's.

I was thinking the same thing. We have to keep them from growing too big. If we're on a different continent that's very hard...

 

[Karasu]

I am still puzzled by this.
I see it as a trade-off between tech pace and easy access to the AI lands for our (small!) army, with Archipelago easing up the first point and Pangea the second.
In the end, it may be that Continents is the best compromise between the two, but that's still debatable as far as I can say.

Regarding the civ, I like both Celts and Japanese if we go for Mil/Rel. The Celts UU comes a bit too early for my liking, but given the 'compulsory AA Golden Age' that's not a big deal.
I'm happy with either.

As a second choice, Babylon woud be fine.

I've never played with Germany, so we can even go with Bismarck. The Anarchy turns are going to make it complicated for Space to keep track of the culture points, though...

 

[a space oddity]

Originally posted by Karasu
... to keep track of the culture points, though...

Every SG its own volunteer, that's what I say.

 

[mad-bax]

I like the Samurai. My objection to it is based on the Wonders that become available at the end of the AA and beginning of the MA.

We have the Great Wall, Hanging Gardens, Sistine, Sun Tzus and Leos all on top of each other. The Samurai come too late to help with that. To get them all we need leaders. The retreat capability of the Gallic swords means that they will die less often tahn regular swords and so we will get leaders earlier.

For me it is a question of balancing 3 things.

1. Leader generation - ideally this would be a militaristic civ with a strong UU with high surviveability. Celts or Japanese.

2. Tech rate control. This means islands map with no barbs (or huts). combined with terrain that is difficult for the AI to improve. Lots of jungle, lots of mountains.

3. Access to resources. This means Pangea with a high water to land ratio.

So that is why I argue for Celts on a wet, young, 80% water, continents map with no barbs.

I think this would be the easiest setting. Do we want the easiest setting?

EDIT: Religious trait is a given for me. 8 turns of anarchy would be a killer, and two lots of anarchy to get to Democracy would be suicidal. Though I doubt we will need Democracy as worker rate and corruption are unlikely to affect us much.

 

[a space oddity]

But how easy is easy in this case?

 

[mad-bax]

AFAIK it's never been achieved at any level above chieftain.

 

[a space oddity]

That's what I mean.

 

[Karasu]

I would agree with Mad-Bax...

Thinking of the slow start on MB1, where the 20k cities were 'only' two, I think we will have a hard time getting our game started.
Not only will we get a small army, but it will also come quite late in the game.
In this sense, I would not dislike a quiet starting position...

But we will need some good, large land in our starting position to get all five cities capable of working on wonders. Won't 80% water be somewhat extreme in this regard? Just asking; if you feel this is going to be too easy, just pick a random setting

..."Or have us play with our hands tied behind our backs"...

 

[TedJackson]

I've pretty much stayed out of the discussion today as I've been busy and also wanted an opportunity to think.

I'll just summarise the voting so far:

mad-bax - Celts or Babylon
Karasu - Celts or Babylon
Yndy - Japan or Babylon
Space - Celts, Japan or Germany (typical woman, can't make her mind up )
Northern Pike - Celts or Babylon

So the Celts are the clear favourite. I'm going to make an executive decision and choose continents, wet & rocky for the map.

I'll roll some starts tomorrow morning to decide what land size to go with.

I hope that doesn't distress anybody too much.


Ted

 

[a space oddity]

You're a brave man TJ...