gbno1fan
Emperor
Hmm...a thought...would it be at all feasible to have TNT pay us money to up our research, putting our funding together to reach Education even faster?
TNT Files - Term 5
- Thread starter fe3333au
- Start date
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
A couple quick comments
Letter looks good Fe but we should probably at least offer a suggestion on what to research (since that's what they asked for).
I would like to suggest that TNT go down the Education path, while we stick to the military techs. If we're going to hold off on swapping then I'd rather be the team with the trebuchets and musketmen!
Either way I think trading Chivalry to both teams is a good idea as this tech will be very useful for both sides which brings me to another thought:
The Great Library:
Ok I'm really just throwing that out on the table for commentary.
Thoughts?
Letter looks good Fe but we should probably at least offer a suggestion on what to research (since that's what they asked for).
I would like to suggest that TNT go down the Education path, while we stick to the military techs. If we're going to hold off on swapping then I'd rather be the team with the trebuchets and musketmen!
Either way I think trading Chivalry to both teams is a good idea as this tech will be very useful for both sides which brings me to another thought:
The Great Library:
Maybe the best way to neutralize the Great Library isn't to get Education ASAP anyway. If both TNT and MIA keep up the pressure on our rivals, then it's hard to imagine that either team will want to divert 400 shields to the GL. If we see either KISS or Dnuts switch to some high-shield wonder
then we'll know what's up
and we'll know that they are behind in military
and take that as a signal to hit them with everything we've got.
If KISS really does try to build the Great Library, then that means they are giving up on building 10 Gallic Swords that they could have. Even with a Forbidden Palace pre-build in a city pulling 15 shields, we'll still have 14 turns warning that the Great Library is coming. (since you can't do a FP pre-build in your capital, and any other city is likely to have more corruption, it's likely we'll have even more than 14 turns warning). When we see the Great Library coming, we turn off science, ratchet up our military, and hit them with everything. It could be very bloody initially, but with their best city off-line, they won't be able to re-supply quickly enough. They either keep building it in which case, by the time it's finished, we done so much damage it's too late for them to save themselves anyway or they cancel the build, and the war gets tougher, but we still have a head start on them in building units.
TNT can do the same thing to Dnuts, but frankly, it doesnt bother me nearly that much if Dnuts catch up technology wise. It's in our best interest for TNT and Dnuts to stay at relative parity.
If KISS really does try to build the Great Library, then that means they are giving up on building 10 Gallic Swords that they could have. Even with a Forbidden Palace pre-build in a city pulling 15 shields, we'll still have 14 turns warning that the Great Library is coming. (since you can't do a FP pre-build in your capital, and any other city is likely to have more corruption, it's likely we'll have even more than 14 turns warning). When we see the Great Library coming, we turn off science, ratchet up our military, and hit them with everything. It could be very bloody initially, but with their best city off-line, they won't be able to re-supply quickly enough. They either keep building it in which case, by the time it's finished, we done so much damage it's too late for them to save themselves anyway or they cancel the build, and the war gets tougher, but we still have a head start on them in building units.
TNT can do the same thing to Dnuts, but frankly, it doesnt bother me nearly that much if Dnuts catch up technology wise. It's in our best interest for TNT and Dnuts to stay at relative parity.
Ok I'm really just throwing that out on the table for commentary.
Thoughts?
I am certainly not as concerned about the Great Library now that everyone is almost out of the Ancient Age already.
Definitely someone should research Engineering as that is the only tech that leads somewhere useful even if nobody attempts the Great Library, and I would prefer we do it. I would tell TNT that we are researching Engineering (maybe we started with scientists in anarchy). If they feel the Great Library block is a priority, then they can do Theology and Education, otherwise they can do Chivalry. Either way, we are definitely interested in researching different techs and exchanging (perhaps with compensation going to the one who does the more expensive tech).
Definitely someone should research Engineering as that is the only tech that leads somewhere useful even if nobody attempts the Great Library, and I would prefer we do it. I would tell TNT that we are researching Engineering (maybe we started with scientists in anarchy). If they feel the Great Library block is a priority, then they can do Theology and Education, otherwise they can do Chivalry. Either way, we are definitely interested in researching different techs and exchanging (perhaps with compensation going to the one who does the more expensive tech).
I don't quite follow your line of reasoning:
EDIT: Now I understand: FP is only 300 shields, GL is 400, so they'll have to switch and that is when we'll see it. But, if the civ is in a GA, we'll only have 5 turns or so of warning. But, like you say, with a city producing 15 shields, that will only give us 7 turns before the city has accumulated the remaining 100.
Next:
Even if we do have 10 turns of warning till the GL completes, I don't think there's much we could do militarily. Think about the logistics of a military operation:
Those are my initial thoughts, and I hope this adds to the discussion
EDIT: Now I understand: FP is only 300 shields, GL is 400, so they'll have to switch and that is when we'll see it. But, if the civ is in a GA, we'll only have 5 turns or so of warning. But, like you say, with a city producing 15 shields, that will only give us 7 turns before the city has accumulated the remaining 100.
Next:
Even if we do have 10 turns of warning till the GL completes, I don't think there's much we could do militarily. Think about the logistics of a military operation:
1. Assign units to a staging area
2. Bring in ships for transport
3. move the ships to the debarkation site
4. unload troops onto foreign soil, sparking international problems
5. FIND the city that is building the GL (or whatever wonder pre-build they're using)
6. slog through enemy troops to reach the target city
7. whittle the city down to razing size, or take it in the process.
Figuring a minimum of 3 turns to actually take the city and raze it (optomistically, as with a city on a coast), that leaves 7 turns or so for troop movements and staging. I don't think we can realistically pull that off.2. Bring in ships for transport
3. move the ships to the debarkation site
4. unload troops onto foreign soil, sparking international problems
5. FIND the city that is building the GL (or whatever wonder pre-build they're using)
6. slog through enemy troops to reach the target city
7. whittle the city down to razing size, or take it in the process.
Then TNT should pursue the military path. They cannot get an edge against DNUT as it is, and they are talking about a peace treaty. If TNT has a technological edge, that may skewer TNT's desire for peace. If we are trying to get the war prolonged, having TNT research Theology and Education is NOT the way to do it.
I keep going back and forth on this one, but right now I'm squarely in the Back state. If we TNT and MIA trade Chivalry with eachother, we are basically giving it to DNUTs or KISS. (personally, I think it's more likely that KISS will do the GL). So if we're willing to let that happen, why not just research it ourselves and sell it to BOTH Dnut and KISS, getting some sweet sweet gpt in exchange?
Those are my initial thoughts, and I hope this adds to the discussion
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
I'm sorry I wasn't clear! I'm not advocating razing the GL city - just a standard, hit them right across the border old fashioned war.Peter Grimes said:
Let them catch up in tech! by the time they do, we'll have gutted their military forces, taken a couple border towns, and we'll be on the move to their core.
It's my understanding the the FP is only 200 shields. Am I wrong on this?Peter Grimes said:
I agree with all of this.Chamnix said:
With their recent jump in tech, I doubt TNT is still interested in peace.Peter Grimes said:
And I think that the combination of the Immortals on their own roads and fighting in the jungle will be more than enough to stall Dnuts. I don't think TNT is in any real danger.
Forbidden Palace is 200 shields - the info center is outdated or wrong.
I would think TNT would still be interested in peace. Their new techs really will not help them attack Donuts successfully. Unfortunately, Donuts should be interested in peace - if TNT can't defend themselves against Mounted Warriors with Immortals and pikemen, then there is no hope for them.
It is a long way to gunpowder regardless. TNT would be best off signing peace for the short-term no matter what their research path is.
I don't really think anyone will build the Great Library anymore. I know that if I were in their position, I would be arguing strongly against using 400 shields that way.
I would think TNT would still be interested in peace. Their new techs really will not help them attack Donuts successfully. Unfortunately, Donuts should be interested in peace - if TNT can't defend themselves against Mounted Warriors with Immortals and pikemen, then there is no hope for them.
It is a long way to gunpowder regardless. TNT would be best off signing peace for the short-term no matter what their research path is.
I don't really think anyone will build the Great Library anymore. I know that if I were in their position, I would be arguing strongly against using 400 shields that way.
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
Yeah - that thing is wrong frequently on C3C issues.Chamnix said:
Unfortunately - we wouldn't have built the Mausoleum of Mallous either...Chamnix said:
But I think you're right. It just dosn't seem likely.
And if it happens - there's always a sharp stick we can use to show them the error of spending 400 shields on getting a few techs.
Chamnix said:
This is the most rational argument yet put forth for discounting the danger of the Great Library.
I will no longer bother any threads with my idle chatter on the matter
What should TNT research?
I think they should do Chivalry, while we do Engineering. We're going to be a lot faster than them, so they may as well do a dead-ender, while we increase the movement allowance over our many rivers.
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
In my opinion...
Best case Scenario:
We do Engineering
TNT does Chivalry
Worst Case Scenario:
We do Engineering
TNT beelines for Education out of fear of the Dnuts
Either one is ok. But I think we should get Chivalry after Engineering if TNT won't do it.
Best case Scenario:
We do Engineering
TNT does Chivalry
Worst Case Scenario:
We do Engineering
TNT beelines for Education out of fear of the Dnuts
Either one is ok. But I think we should get Chivalry after Engineering if TNT won't do it.
fe3333au
Deity
The drafting continues ... I will finalise and post late tomorrow as it is Australia Day and we are BBQing and 
Greeting greekguy of the TNT.
A good name for a strong and mutual friendship, we like the title Alliance of Science... BUT, before we discuss matters of a beneficial and positive nature, I must address something that disturbs us and seek clarification.
We have received the expected responce from KISS, they received your letter where you informed them that you could not trade Construction with them. Their reaction was anger at being cut off from a Construction deal ... no surprise thereWe are led to believe that they are stuck in the middle of researching Monarchy a logical move for a religious traited civilization and hence their reaction.
However, we were not expecting the level of venom in their correspondence and I suspect that there is a strong connection with the parting statement ... "Enjoy the war with MIA." We seek an explanation for this action and can only stress our strong dissapointment, I am hoping that you are not trying to goad KISS into attacking MIA !!?? So please reply soon as we cannot allow this type of diplomacy to be sent as it directly affects us.
On to better topics ... and as mentioned Alliance of Science has a certain ring which is pleasing to the ear.
Options of Research
MIA will be starting Engineering 36(1080) ... Invention 44(1320) ... Gunpowder 48(1440)
This leaves the Chivalry 32(960) deadend or perhaps the GL neutralisation path of Theology 40(1200) ... Education 44(1320)
Please write your thoughts or perhaps book an AIM session (times must be stated in GMT)
What technology would best suit the needs in your war ... Chivalry although a deadended technology it never the less produces units that can counter both our respective rival's UUs.
Also inorder to get a timeframe, could you inform us at what level beakers you are prepared to set your research levels ?!
Also and paramount should be the issue of the GL and how it effects trading between us prior to neutralisation.
Will you be changing governnments or have you begun the change already, if so which type are you leaning towards?
Regards
Feaurius III
Foreign Minister MIA
Looks good!... But I bet the roasted meat looks better 
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
I would suggest changing this…
What do you think?
To this…Old said:
New said:What technology would best suit the needs in your war ... Chivalry although a deadended technology it never the less produces units that can counter both our respective rival's UUs.
We will work on Engineering, to help both of us move across those rivers, and get better city killing weapons.
Also inorder to get a timeframe, could you inform us at what level beakers you are prepared to set your research levels ?!
Also, we feel that the threat of the Great Library grows dimmer with each passing turn. At this stage of the game, our rivals would be foolish to invest 400 shields in the Library… and if they insist on being foolish in wasting those shields, then we can punish them for their foolishness with the 400 shields worth of army units that we'll be ahead of them.
What do you think?
fe3333au
Deity
Nuts have received save ... I'm waiting for the lift to bbq ... Australia Day 
Title - Alliance of Science
Spell checked and reading better ... almost there methinks ... Sent to greekguy PM and TNT g-mail
bbq ... Australia Day Title - Alliance of Science
Greeting greekguy of the TNT.
A good name for a strong and mutual friendship, we like the title Alliance of Science
We have received the expected response from KISS, they received your letter where you informed them that you could not trade Construction with them. Their reaction was anger at being cut off from a Construction deal ... no surprise there
However, we were not expecting the level of venom in their correspondence and I suspect that there is a strong connection with the parting statement ... "Enjoy the war with MIA." We seek an explanation for this action and can only stress our strong disappointment, I am hoping that you are not trying to goad KISS into attacking MIASo please reply soon as we cannot allow this type of diplomacy to continue and be sent without consultation ... as it directly affects us !!!
On to better topics ... and as mentioned Alliance of Science has a certain ring which is pleasing to the ear.
Options of Research
MIA will be starting Engineering 36(1080) ... Invention 44(1320) ... Gunpowder 48(1440)
This leaves the Chivalry 32(960) deadend or perhaps the GL neutralisation path of Theology 40(1200) ... Education 44(1320)
MIA feel better suited to start on Engineering, which will help both of us move across those rivers, and get better city killing weapons.
Also and paramount should be the issue of the Great Library and how it effects trading between us prior to neutralisation. We feel that the threat of the Great Library although always lurking, grows dimmer with each passing turn. At this stage of the game, our rivals would be foolish to invest 400 shields in this venture … and if they insisted on being foolish and shield wasteful, then I'm sure that someone or other can punish them for their foolishness with the 400 shields worth of army units.However since it is a threat, should we ease off on trade prior to neutralisation? We would have your thoughts on this important issue.
Inorder to get a timeframe, could you inform us at what level beakers you are prepared to set your research levels, this will ensure a parity in our knowledge gathering.
Will you be changing governments or have you begun the change already, if so which type are you leaning towards?
I await your response with anticipation as I feel together ruling the Middle Ages is within our grasp. I am, as always at your service, book an AIM session (times must be stated in GMT) if you wish.
Regards
Feaurius III
Foreign Minister MIA
Spell checked and reading better ... almost there methinks ... Sent to greekguy PM and TNT g-mail
fe3333au
Deity
Came with the save 
Interesting that the contentious line 'quoted' by Tubby was incorrect
... I'm beginning to see that the KISS reality is sometimes widely conflicting with the truth !!
Sorry for being late.
Greetings Minister Feaurius III,
greekguy is writing up our latest diplomatic message. You should receive it soon. Will still have not resumed our researching as we do not want to duplicate your efforts. The big question is do we (MIA and TNT) want or need chivalry? If not, we can bypass it and work on theology and engineering bewteen the two of us. A secondary question is what (if any) steps do we take to counter the Great Library threat?
The main reason I'm writing is to apologize for gaffe I made. In my last communique to the Galls I decided to try a little *fishing* for information and said to them, I hope your war against the Greeks goes well. I figured they would deny there was a war afoot OR might start bragging about any plans they've laid. If the latter had been the case I would have reported what they said to you in hopes it would be of benefit to you and your people, our great friends. I never thought they's have the gall to complain to you about a silly remark I made. Well, I guess I shouldn't be surprised. They are Galls after all, aren't they? In the future I will refrain from trying such espionage. Well, at least until we discover the proper way to do it.
As I said earlier, you'll be hearing from greekguy soon. If you have anything to say about the two questions I posed above please write us.
I'm off to do battle with the Iroqi in the flatlands south of the Sacred Jungle.
signed
donsig II
Grand VIzeer of the Ironic and Iroqi Peoples
Interesting that the contentious line 'quoted' by Tubby was incorrect
... I'm beginning to see that the KISS reality is sometimes widely conflicting with the truth !!
fe3333au
Deity
I would like to send this after the save has left us and prior to it reaching TNT.
Draft ... we take Engineering
Draft ... we take Engineering
Hail donsig II
Grand Vizier of the Ironic and Iroqi Peoples
Apology accepted
Regarding Chivalry, we were only suggesting this as a possibility since we are researching Engineering and that way too you would have been able to access a military technology. We did not want you to feel as though we had manipulated you into studying the humanities even though it is the only way to neutralise the Great Library threat.
The best way to counter the Great Library effect is for you to gift (with ACCEPT) us Theology one turn before completing Education, which you will then gift (with ACCEPT) the next turn when you finish learning it ... These technologies will then automatically be passed onto the Great Librarian who will in turn have an embolism
Alliance of Science
Research Route for MIA is ... Engineering (36/1080) ... Invention 44(1320)
Suggested Research Route for TNT is ... Theology (40/1200) ... Education (44/1320)
Also good fortune to your militaristic endeavours in the sweating jungles.
Regards
Feaurius III
Foreign Department MIA
classical_hero
In whom I trust
Would it be possible then for us to be researching Chivalry just for ourselves since we will be way ahead since we will be doing not much at some time, if we do not research Chivalry, considering that we do not want Monarchy, because since we are choosing Republic, it should be our only change of Government.
fe3333au
Deity
TNT seem not to be researching Monarchy ... they are marking time gaining cash ... I guess awaiting to discuss options.
The reason i suggested Engineering is that the majority consensus was for us to study this technology ... However we could easily study Chivalry 32(960) and then Engineering (36/1080) ... thent by the time TNT have neutralised the Great Library, we would already have started Invention 44(1320) ... hence giving us control of who researches what.
The reason i suggested Engineering is that the majority consensus was for us to study this technology ... However we could easily study Chivalry 32(960) and then Engineering (36/1080) ... thent by the time TNT have neutralised the Great Library, we would already have started Invention 44(1320) ...
hence giving us control of who researches what.I would put a little less detail in actually - I wouldn't mention things like mainpulating them into researching humanities and the fact that they will have to give us techs with accept before we give them anything. They either haven't thought about it or don't care, but either way I think we don't want to remind them.
I think we should tell them simply that we are researching Engineering. If they don't see a need for Chivalry, then they should go to Theology.
Remember how cranky KISS ended up getting when they thought they would have to go to Education and not receive the military techs for a while (isn't it ironic that we got Monotheism as our free tech so we would have gone to Education?)? Just in case TNT is not aware that the exchange may be one-sided, then the other side comes later, let's not tell them just yet, or they may rethink their willingness to research Theology.
I think we should tell them simply that we are researching Engineering. If they don't see a need for Chivalry, then they should go to Theology.
Remember how cranky KISS ended up getting when they thought they would have to go to Education and not receive the military techs for a while (isn't it ironic that we got Monotheism as our free tech so we would have gone to Education?)? Just in case TNT is not aware that the exchange may be one-sided, then the other side comes later, let's not tell them just yet, or they may rethink their willingness to research Theology.
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
I agree – TNT has shown themselves to be remarkable non-adept at the finer points of playing Civ3. Let’s not help them too much.
Besides – even if the trade is totally fair… they owe us big time for the “Deal of the Century” we just gave them.
(And I’ll post on this later in the Domestic thread, but I’m thinking it may be worthwhile to go ahead and get Chivalry before we get engineering. As Classical Hero pointed out – we are way ahead, and I would really like to see us have Knights to consolidate our military forces under Republic.)
Besides – even if the trade is totally fair… they owe us big time for the “Deal of the Century” we just gave them.
(And I’ll post on this later in the Domestic thread, but I’m thinking it may be worthwhile to go ahead and get Chivalry before we get engineering. As Classical Hero pointed out – we are way ahead, and I would really like to see us have Knights to consolidate our military forces under Republic.)
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