TNT Files - Term 6

[General_W]

Looks great.

I agree - one thing at a time... but after peace with KISS, it may still be worthwhile to chat with TNT about what their long-term gameplan is... if any?

It would give us a natural opening to try to bed them more closely to our plans. (Which we still need to figure out! )

 

[Chamnix]

Now that the KISS deal is settled, we shouldn’t leave our bestest buddies hanging. Great Library or no Great Library? If we are going to recommend it, then I think we have a decent framework for an agreement already above.

Should we recommend it? If Dnuts are really doing Monotheism, then the Great Library will not be tremendously long-lasting. What’s best for MIA? We want TNT to get as many techs as possible and don’t really care how. Which way will TNT get the most techs? If they build the Great Library in 40 turns or so, they should probably get Invention and Gunpowder, and possibly Chemisty. I’m starting to think it’s very unlikely that KISSNuts will have Metallurgy by then.

I started writing a conclusion, but it kept changing as I typed. I’m really not sure about this, but we should make a decision quickly. I’m tempted to say we should send them an agreement and tell them to decide for themselves, but I think we are better placed to make the right decision. What is everyone else thinking?

 

[General_W]

I think we need to approach TNT and find out if they are planning on starting a war with the Dnuts.
(And I don't mean just by actually attacking them. If they continue with provocative city placement and refuse to give ground when Dnuts come looking for compensation… then that's just as good as starting a war. Maybe a better way to put it is, Will TNT be pursing peace with the Nuts, or just play as they please, and if the Nuts attack, so be it?)

If TNT is committed to peace with the Dnuts, then I think the Great Library bid makes a lot of sense.

If there's another war brewing on the Battle Island, then TNT will probably need those shields for units and Dnuts research will continue to suffer (making less to steal)… and therefore making the Great Library doubly unappealing.


So maybe a letter like this will get the ball really rolling…

Dear TNT,

We have big news to report!
We have finally sledge hammered a peace deal with those "slipperier than greased pigs" KISS idiots.
What an ordeal!

Nonetheless, we have secured peace on our continent until at least turn 165. Our scientists and economists are rejoicing while displaced warmongers are just left to grumble and rail about turn 166.

Finally we are free to focus more on our brotherhood of science. We were working on a more formal proposal for you, when it occurred to us that we really need a better idea of what you foresee happening with the Dnuts.

If you think another war is likely to happen soon (either provoked by Dnut jealousy of your rich lands or due to the sheer warmongering bloodlust of the Nutters) – A Great Library build may not make good sense for you. Those shields will need to go to your military and with the Dnuts focused on war, there will be less science to, er, …borrow… via the Great Library.

However, if you think that peace has a good chance on your continent (which will likely require you to be willing to make some jungle concessions to keep the Nuts in line) – then the possibilities for Great Library build become quite appetizing.

So, we apologize for yet another delay in formalizing the next step in our Alliance, but we need some indication from you of where you think your relationship with the Dnuts is headed.

Let us know! And we'll get back to you with some concrete proposals asap.

All the Best
Your Brothers across the Sea,
MIA

What do you think?

 

[peter grimes]

I like your approach: Very subtle way to let them know that their actions are provocative.

Also good to keep the lines of communication open

 

[Chamnix]

Too much information - I think we can tell them we extended our peace with KISS but not give the end date.

I think we should also send the basic outlines of what our GL proposal would look like just so they have an idea what we are thinking in terms of an agreement if the GL gambit is elected. It doesn't have to be complete, but let's give them our ideas so they can start thinking about it.

 

[General_W]

Does this look better?

Dear TNT,

We have big news to report!
We have finally sledge hammered a peace deal with those "slipperier than greased pigs" KISS idiots.
What an ordeal!

Nonetheless, we have secured continued peace on our continent for the time being. Our scientists and economists are rejoicing while displaced warmongers are just left to grumble and wait for another day.

Finally we are free to focus more on our brotherhood of science. We were working on a more formal proposal for you, when it occurred to us that we really need a better idea of what you foresee happening with the Dnuts.

If you think another war is likely to happen soon (either provoked by Dnut jealousy of your rich lands or due to the sheer warmongering bloodlust of the Nutters) – A Great Library build may not make good sense for you. Those shields will need to go to your military and with the Dnuts focused on war, there will be less science to, er, …borrow… via the Great Library.

However, if you think that peace has a good chance on your continent (which will likely require you to be willing to make some jungle concessions to keep the Nuts in line) – then the possibilities for Great Library build become quite appetizing.

Spoiler Rough Draft of Possible Great Library Deal :

1. MIA will provide Chivalry to TNT anytime upon request. TNT can have it immediately following the signing of this document if desired, or they can build horsemen for upgrade first. (We also assume that we will have received Engineering by the time this is signed)

2. TNT will build the Great Library. TNT guarantees completion of the Great Library no later than turn 155 if nobody else completes it before then.

3. TNT will provide MIA any or all techs obtained from the Great Library immediately upon MIA's request.

4. If the Great Library is completed by Dnuts or KISS before TNT and before turn 155, then MIA will provide TNT all techs researched by MIA up to that point and TNT will provide MIA with 25% of the Gold TNT accumulated during the period of building the Great Library when TNT was stockpiling gold instead of researching (this amount will not exceed 300 gold). TNT would not be required to provide the gold until 30 turns following the gifting of the techs. We believe this is unlikely, and hope that this whole clause is irrelevant.

5. Upon the earlier of the Great Library being neutralized by Dnuts or KISS reaching Education, or once the Great Library provides Military Tradition, MIA will give TNT all Middle Age techs that MIA has researched at that point. MIA guarantees to provide at least as many Middle Age techs to TNT as TNT provided to MIA from the Great Library. If MIA has not completed enough techs to repay TNT in full at that point, then MIA will continue to give techs to TNT as soon as they are completed until payment is satisfied.

6. TNT guarantees the safety of the Great Library. Until both Dnuts and KISS have Education, TNT guarantees that the town containing the Great Library will not be captured. If there are at least as many enemy units within striking range of the Great Library town as there are defenders in the town, then TNT agrees to abandon the Great Library town rather than risk it falling into enemy hands.

7. None of the techs provided by TNT to MIA may be traded sold or gifted to any other civ by MIA, and none of the techs provided by MIA to TNT may be traded sold or gifted to any other civ by TNT.

So, we apologize for yet another delay in formalizing the next step in our Alliance, but we need some indication from you of where you think your relationship with the Dnuts is headed.

Let us know! And we'll get back to you with some concrete proposals asap.

All the Best
Your Brothers across the Sea,
MIA

 

[Chamnix]

I like that better - couple questions/comments:

#1 - I wonder if this is relevant anymore since TNT may have accepted Chivalry, but if we send it before we know, then it's good.

#2 - Maybe add something about if Dnuts declares on TNT by turn 135, then this agreement is null and void so TNT has a way out.

#4 - I think the payment should be tied to something easier to quantify. We will have no idea how much TNT earned, and they may not either if they spend a lot of it.

But I like it - I wonder how fe3333au is doing?

 

[General_W]

#1 - I wonder if this is relevant anymore since TNT may have accepted Chivalry, but if we send it before we know, then it's good.

Agreed. Depends how fast we get something ready to send!

#2 - Maybe add something about if Dnuts declares on TNT by turn 135, then this agreement is null and void so TNT has a way out.

I don't know, I think we want to incent them to make peace. Besides, if war break out shortly after this deal is in place, we can just let them off the hook (even without a clause) and then we just look like really good guys.

#4 - I think the payment should be tied to something easier to quantify. We will have no idea how much TNT earned, and they may not either if they spend a lot of it.

Ok - what do you propose?
Something fixed like 10-15 gold per turn? I'm not sure what you have in mind?

 

[Chamnix]

I think some percentage of the price of the techs we provide makes sense - it's just a question of what is a reasonable percentage.

Received from TNT with the save:

Greetings Chamnix,

Just a short note in reply to yours. First, thank you very much for passing on the Nutters' recent remarks concerning our southern border. We are plaesed to announce that our military advisor now tells us we have an average military compared to the Iroqi. We are constantly working to increase our defensive posture, including both training more pikemen and building walls in key cities. We are also working to expand our borders in key areas. We expected the Nutters to be a tad tweaked at the placement of some of our newest cities and have been preparing for any unkindliness that may result.

We have not sent and accepted engineering because we are waiting on the Great Library Gambit Agreement (GLiGA) to be signed. We would rather not gift this tech to you until we have a signed and binding agreement showing us what we can expect in return. We hurried along our research on this tech because we are aware of your desire for it. We have also been working on the Great Library pre-build as you asked. All we ask now is a formal proposal so we can get the agreement finalized ans signed. We would rather not have to trade engineering for chivalry straight up as we feel the latter not as valuable as the former. We thank you for your offer to make this trade if we need chivalry because of war and we extend the same to you. If you are attacked we will certainly trade you engineering for chivalry even without a formal GLiGA in place.

Finally, our harbor is complete and we can now trade with the world! We have gems and you have dibs on them. We need workers and are willing to trade gems for workers! We'll take four workers up front for the gems or five workers if you need to pay on time. (We'd send you the gems now and you could send one worker now and one every four turns for 16 turns making a total of 5 - or you could send 4 now all at once.)

Hope to hear back from you soon.

signed
donsig IV
President of the Republic of Iron
Hereditary Grand Vizeer of the Ironic and Iroqi Peoples

Good news that their military has reached average - that makes me feel a little better.

I'm somewhat irritated that they won't send us Engineering because "it is more valuable than Chivalry" - I really thought we had a deal, but apparently they didn't. Why the heck did they send us Engineering without accept last turn?

As far as workers for gems, I would tell them flat out that the game does not permit us to trade workers right now. We can decide on our own if we want to pursue other avenues of getting workers to them, but for now, I am in no mood to give them any ideas - the work that we have to do on our side would get done faster if we had bridges.

But I am now thinking that they should build the Great Library - if they can't even see to give us Engineering for Chivalry after all we have done for them, then I don't want one-for-one tech agreements.

 

[General_W]

My, my… this is a bit disappointing.

But I suppose we should probably just forge ahead with the Great Library offer.

I’m still in favor of giving them some workers… they need help if they are going to be a valuable ally. If they get taken down by the Dnuts, then our hopes for an extra luxury get significantly more slim. We have better odds of hanging onto the extra luxes by supporting TNT and hoping they can keep control.

Obviously, we can’t give them workers yet. But we should start deciding if we’re ok with it.

I’m voting yes.
I’d be willing to give them some workers even without Gems compensation – so the deal looks especially good to me. I don’t think we should undertake any extraordinary measures to get the workers to them… we’ll just promise the workers to them when we get Astronomy (I’m pretty sure that tech will let us trade the workers).

Other thoughts?


Draft Response to TNT

Dear TNT,

We have big news to report!
We have finally sledge hammered a peace deal with those "slipperier than greased pigs" KISS idiots.
What an ordeal!

Nonetheless, we have secured continued peace on our continent for the time being. Our scientists and economists are rejoicing while displaced warmongers are just left to grumble and wait for another day.

Finally we are free to focus more on our brotherhood of science.
We must admit, we are a little disappointed that after the very generous deal we made with you for construction that you still don’t trust us to make things fair over a swap with Engineering. However, we understand that trust is a hard thing to come by in this world, and we are optimistic that soon you will trust us more fully.

We have prepared the following Rough Draft of a Great Library treaty for you to look at.
Nothing here is set in stone – we’re just trying to get the ball rolling. Let us know what you think!

Proposed Treaty:

1. MIA will provide Chivalry to TNT anytime upon request. TNT can have it immediately following the signing of this document if desired, or they can build horsemen for upgrade first.

2. TNT will provide MIA with Engineering as soon as this treaty is signed.

3. TNT will build the Great Library. TNT guarantees completion of the Great Library no later than turn 155 if nobody else completes it before then.

4. TNT will provide MIA any or all techs obtained from the Great Library immediately upon MIA's request.

5. If the Great Library is completed by Dnuts or KISS before TNT and before turn 155, then MIA will provide TNT all techs researched by MIA up to that point and TNT will provide MIA with ONE of the following (TNT’s Choice):

a) 25% of the Gold TNT accumulated during the period of building the Great Library when TNT was stockpiling gold instead of researching.
b) Gold equal to 25% of the monopoly beaker cost of the Techs that MIA provides to TNT for free.
c) 300 gold​

TNT is free to choose the cheapest option for them, and would not be required to provide all of the gold until 30 turns following the gifting of the techs. We believe this is unlikely, and hope that this whole clause is irrelevant.

6. Upon the earlier of the Great Library being neutralized by Dnuts or KISS reaching Education, or once the Great Library provides Military Tradition, MIA will give TNT all Middle Age techs that MIA has researched at that point. MIA guarantees to provide at least as many Middle Age techs to TNT as TNT provided to MIA from the Great Library. If MIA has not completed enough techs to repay TNT in full at that point, then MIA will continue to give techs to TNT as soon as they are completed until payment is satisfied.

7. TNT guarantees the safety of the Great Library. Until both Dnuts and KISS have Education, TNT guarantees that the town containing the Great Library will not be captured. If there are at least as many enemy units within striking range of the Great Library town as there are defenders in the town, then TNT agrees to abandon the Great Library town rather than risk it falling into enemy hands.

8. None of the techs provided by TNT to MIA may be traded sold or gifted to any other civ by MIA, and none of the techs provided by MIA to TNT may be traded sold or gifted to any other civ by TNT.​

Hopefully this rough draft looks fair to you and provides enough cover for both sides if things don’t happen to go according to plan.

Let us know! And we'll get this thing signed and the Alliance of Science will be off and running!

All the Best
Your Brothers across the Sea,
MIA

 

[fe3333au]

Looks good ... have sent as Donsig is eager to chat

 

[fe3333au]

Quick Chat

fe3333au: Have sent you PM of the draft that General W was working on.
donsigw: Got the PM. It actually looks pretty good to me but then again I'm tired since it's two am.

<Will Post on their Thread>
donsigw: I'm going to post it and see what the others on my team think about it
fe3333au: ok ... look over it and get back to us ... I think workers may be a problem though ... think we need Navigation ... so maybe someone can check that

Worker Test Required
donsigw: why not put a worker in your capital and see if you can offer it to us? I can try it too I guess. I know we were able to give a worker to back to the nutters in our peace treaty
fe3333au: yes problem is overseas ... but it may be easier for us to do ... unless your capital is producing one

< Capital id Producing the Wonder >
donsigw: No, to tell the truth we're using the capital to build the GL. But if we have a worker nearby he can just drop by the palace and I can see if we can ship him out. Then he can continue on to his duties.
fe3333au: only if it is on his way ... else we can do it.

About KISS
fe3333au: Peace sems likely with KISS
donsigw: has your team given any thought to what you'd like ot pay if workers are not an option?
fe3333au: No ... but maybe we can position ships and maybe a couple of spotters on your coast to block KISS if they come a calling ... or we can ship the workers the old fashioned way
donsigw: we really wanted the workers to add to our cities - but the ships could be a good idea

Take time with our turn
donsigw: I posted the porposal - hopefully we can get it finalized before we play our next turn so we can send engineering to you
fe3333au: So have you turned off research?
donsigw: perhaps you could suggest that you use your full 24 hours this turn to give us time
fe3333au: sure no worries

Research is OFF
donsigw: yes - we've turned off research - and we're in no hurry to get chivalry - no sense in makingit easier for the others to learn it
fe3333au: better to build cheap horses and then upgrade
fe3333au: how is it with Nuts

<Defensive Build Strategy>
donsigw: actually we're much more into defense now ... pikemen and walls ...

<False Confidence>
donsigw: now that we're not weak we think the nutters will think twice about starting anything
fe3333au: Knights are good defence as well ... anyway think about it
donsigw: if war starts we will definately want chivalry
fe3333au: We are concerned about KISS motives ... with peace with us ... they may be looking to you
donsigw: yeah, that has crossed our minds ... even more reason to be defensive minded
fe3333au: so build some horses while they are cheap and you get the tank of the middle ages
donsigw: will take that under advisement

donsigw: gotta go home now
donsigw: will talk with you again soon
donsigw: signing off
fe3333au: cya
donsigw signed off at 6:30:55 PM.

 

[Chamnix]

donsigw: why not put a worker in your capital and see if you can offer it to us?

We already tried it - we could send to KISS, but not TNT or Dnuts.

 

[fe3333au]

From TNT

... bloody xcl

Dear MIA,

My team has discussed your GLiGA and has some changes to propose. Although we have kept the bulk of the agreement the same, we have some changes we would like to be included in the document. Here's our revised treaty (changes in bold):

1. MIA will provide Chivalry to TNT anytime upon request. TNT can have it immediately following the signing of this document if desired, or they can build horsemen for upgrade first.

2. TNT will provide MIA with Engineering as soon as this treaty is signed.

3. TNT will build the Great Library. TNT guarantees completion of the Great Library no later than turn 155 if nobody else completes it before then. If TNT fails to build the Great Library by turn 155 and no one else has built the Great Library then TNT will pay MIA a penalty fee of 300 gold. This penalty need not be paid all at once but payment must be completed by turn 185. (Note: if this point is actually reached and TNT is close to completing the Great Library then perhaps an extention of this agreement could be reached.)
a) If TNT is attacked by KISS or the Doughnuts before TNT completes the Great Library then TNT reserves the right to nullify this agreement. If TNT chooses to nullify the agreement then TNT will pay MIA either i) 25% of the Gold TNT accumulated during the period of building the Great Library beginning with TNT's first turn after this agreement is signed) when TNT was stockpiling gold instead of researching or ii) 300 gold. TNT is free to choose the cheaper option and payment need not be made all at once and the total is not due until 30 turns after TNT is again at peace. In return MIA will give TNT all techs MIA researched to that point that TNT does not already have.
b) This agreement is null and void if MIA attacks TNT.

4. TNT will provide MIA any or all techs obtained from the Great Library immediately upon MIA's request.

5. If the Great Library is completed by Dnuts or KISS before TNT and before turn 155, then MIA will provide TNT all techs researched by MIA up to that point and TNT will provide MIA with ONE of the following (TNT&#8217;s Choice):
a) 25% of the Gold TNT accumulated during the period of building the Great Library (beginning with TNT's first turn after this agreement is signed) when TNT was stockpiling gold instead of researching.
b) Gold equal to 25% of the monopoly beaker cost of the Techs that MIA provides to TNT for free.
c) 300 gold
TNT is free to choose the cheapest option for them, and would not be required to provide all of the gold until 30 turns following the gifting of the techs. We believe this is unlikely, and hope that this whole clause is irrelevant.

6. Upon the earlier of the Great Library being neutralized by Dnuts or KISS reaching Education, or once the Great Library provides Military Tradition, MIA will give TNT all Middle Age techs that MIA has researched at that point. MIA guarantees to provide at least as many Middle Age techs to TNT as TNT provided to MIA from the Great Library. If MIA has not completed enough techs to repay TNT in full at that point, then MIA will continue to give techs to TNT as soon as they are completed until payment is satisfied.

7. TNT guarantees the safety of the Great Library. Until both Dnuts and KISS have Education, TNT guarantees that the town containing the Great Library will not be captured. If there are at least as many enemy units within striking range of the Great Library town as there are defenders in the town, then TNT agrees to abandon the Great Library town rather than risk it falling into enemy hands.

8. None of the techs provided by TNT to MIA may be traded sold or gifted to any other civ by MIA or by TNT, and none of the techs provided by MIA to TNT may be traded sold or gifted to any other civ by TNT or by MIA.

I hope you find theses changes fair, so we sign this landmark treaty soon. The sooner we sign this treaty, the sooner our people will ensure technological dominance over KISS and the Iroqi.

Bye for now.

greekguy, TNT Greek Ambassador

 

[fe3333au]

They want to have the techs non-tradable to others ... I don't like that.

They want to start to count the gold from signing, even though they have started already as have we.

Maybe due to these alterations, we should ask for more cash as a penalty if they fail to hold their end of the bargain ... especially if they retain the right to swap production.

 

[Chamnix]

b) This agreement is null and void if MIA attacks TNT.

If this is necessary, then I guess we need a clause that says &#8220;This agreement is null and void if TNT attacks MIA.&#8221;

a) If TNT is attacked by KISS or the Doughnuts before TNT completes the Great Library then TNT reserves the right to nullify this agreement. If TNT chooses to nullify the agreement then TNT will pay MIA either i) 25% of the Gold TNT accumulated during the period of building the Great Library beginning with TNT's first turn after this agreement is signed) when TNT was stockpiling gold instead of researching or ii) 300 gold. TNT is free to choose the cheaper option and payment need not be made all at once and the total is not due until 30 turns after TNT is again at peace. In return MIA will give TNT all techs MIA researched to that point that TNT does not already have.

I don&#8217;t like the way this is worded. To me, it sounds like if TNT is attacked, then we wait for peace and then 30 turns later, we exchange all our techs at that point for 300 gold &#8211; not gonna happen. If TNT gets attacked and abandons the Great Library, then we can give them whatever techs we researched up until the point they were attacked, but not 30 turns beyond that and certainly not 30 turns after peace &#8211; the 30 turns should only refer to when they pay us.

I also am not a fan of the trade restrictions, but I think it will be difficult to get that out of there.

 

[General_W]

For the "What if TNT is attacked?" clause&#8230; how about this?

a) If TNT is attacked by KISS or the Doughnuts before TNT completes the Great Library then TNT reserves the right to nullify this agreement. If TNT chooses to nullify the agreement then TNT will pay MIA either i) 25% of the Gold TNT accumulated during the period of building the Great Library beginning with TNT's first turn after this agreement is signed (when TNT was stockpiling gold instead of researching) or ii) 300 gold. TNT is free to choose the cheaper option and payment need not be made all at once and the total is not due until 30 turns after TNT is again at peace. In return MIA will give TNT all techs MIA researched up to that point that TNT was attacked.

At the end there, we could say "researched up to the point that TNT abandoned the Great Library" or "researched up to the point that TNT nullified this agreement" &#8211; but this would give TNT great incentive to try to keep building the Great Library even after they are attacked&#8230; to make sure the get maximum tech from us. Now &#8211; this is ok, if TNT does well in the war and can still get the GL. However, if they just keep building the GL longer than necessary only to abandon it later &#8211; then they've hurt their war effort and done us no good. So that's why I went with "researched up to the point that TNT was attacked" so that TNT's incentive is to focus on winning the war.

Other thoughts?



I'm also opposed to the trade restrictions&#8230; but I'm not sure how much it will matter in all practicality.
However, I think we should try to negotiate this point, just for the sake of flexibility. (It's probably just as well that we're having this conversation with TNT so that there's no misunderstanding later)

I propose something like this&#8230;

We're glad you brought up the issue of trading technologies. And while we're happy to agree to not trading away any techs you give us &#8211; we believe we may need the flexibility to trade away some of our own research. Please understand &#8211; the whole point of our Alliance of Science with you is so that we can both pull far ahead of the other teams in technology. We have no intention of helping the other teams stay current in tech. However, we have learned that a key tech trade now and then can be a diplomatically valuable thing. We believe that if you will agree to our retaining some flexibility with our tech we may be able to find ways to thwart and hinder the developing KISS/Nuts alliance&#8230; which if it develops fully will be very bad for both of us.
One thing worth pointing out is that we'll be focusing on the Peaceful end of the tech tree, and since we're happy to promise we won't trade any tech you give us, you can sleep easy knowing that no advanced military techs will fall into the hands of the Nuts from us.
It's entirely possible (and maybe even likely) that'll we'll never use our flexibility to make any trades &#8211; but if the opportunity arises, it is important to us to be able to do everything we can to stunt the KISS/Nut relationship.

Hopefully that makes sense.
We, of course, welcome your feedback.

What do you all think of that?

 

[peter grimes]

I've got to admit I'm terrifically confused by the whole "If TNT is attacked.... can pay 25% gold.... 300 gold.... blah blah blah..."

I'm having trouble figuring out exactly what the ramifications are. There is one thing that jumped out at me:

i) 25% of the Gold TNT accumulated during the period of building the Great Library

That word accumulated is dangerous. It could mean any gold they have in the treasury at the time of the attack; it could mean the treasury level at the time of nullification; TNT could simply cash-rush a bunch of marketplaces and honestly claim to have "accumulated" zero gold... in which case, they could choose the cheaper option: give MIA all fo their accumulated gold (0!)

So now that I've voiced my problems with the wording, I'm supposed to come up with a better version... darn.... maybe I should have kept my fool mouth shut!

If TNT is attacked by KISS or the Doughnuts before TNT completes the Great Library then TNT may choose to activate the "Contingency Clauses":

Because TNT will not be able to complete the Great Library as agreed, TNT will compensate MIA with one of the following:
1. 300 gold (to be payed out over a maximum of 30 turns starting the turn th GL is abandoned)
2. 25% of the gold in TNT's treasury on the turn of abandonment, plus 25% of the gold TNT spent cash-rushing and upgrading units from turn 117 until the turn of abandonment.

For its part, MIA will give TNT all techs MIA researched up to that point that TNT was attacked.​

rest of treaty here...

That's my best guess at clarifying.

 

[General_W]

I don't know Peter&#8230; your version seems unnecessarily harsh on TNT.

In both options, you require a lot of gold from TNT during the beginning turns of a war&#8230; the WORST possible time to be short on cash.

No matter what financial concessions we get from TNT, I think any deadlines should only kick in after the war is over.

You make a good point about "accumulated" being a bad word &#8211; but this can be easily fixed by changing it to "earned" and leaving the rest of the language the same.


-----

As long as I'm posting on the subject of TNT, since TNT brought it up, we should probably just add a clause about peace. Something like&#8230;

TNT and MIA hereby also agree to a sweeping peace deal of mutual non-aggression and military cooperation.
* TNT and MIA units will not attack or hinder each other in any way. TNT and MIA will both seek ways to help the other in military endeavors as much as possible.
* This peace deal stand alone from any agreements regarding the Great Library. While the Great Library deal will end (either by completion of the Library or by less desirable means) this peace deal will not expire until the Modern Era.
* It may only be pre-maturely canceled by 15 turns written notice to the other team.

I think this whole peace thing is pretty harmless. It's hard to imagine why we would need to cancel the peace treaty with TNT before the Modern Age. Even if TNT ends up in a massive war against KISS and Dnuts, our best strategic option will still be to attack the Dnuts.
The "help each other as much as possible clause" sounds nice, but is essentially toothless.

All in all &#8211; this is designed to make TNT feel better, but not really change any strategic plans that we already have anyway.

Thoughts?

 

[peter grimes]

I wasn't trying to be harsh - I thought I was simply rephrasing and fleshing out what had already been proposed. Maybe we're going about the Contingency the wrong way. Maybe we need a completely different approach, one that no one has thought of yet.

Example: If MIA has secure peace with DNUTs and KISS, we could 'blockade' the GL city with our units. DNUT and TNT wouldn't be able to attack us (unless they just trashed our peace treaty...), and so the GL build would be safe from attack. Of course, this doesn't prevent KISS or DNUT from building it out from underneath TNT... I'll try and think some more on it later.

I really like the sweeping peace proposal, and I think they'd go for it right now. The timing is perfect, and they seem to be really happy to have a powerful, far-away friend.