TNT Files - Term 6

[peter grimes]

I didn't even think of that angle of tading workers.

I had assumed all along that the workers would go over on a boat, remain under our control, and assist with building a road to hook up their jungle luxuries.

Two big problems: Why put in worker turns to hook up another luxury that someone else controls?
We'd have to protect those workers from barbs and backstabbing with a couple of hoplites.

If we were to consider this, I'd think that 4 workers and 2 hoplites would be the most we could effectively afford... and even then, I don't think that UberReichsArbeiter Chamnix will allow it

 

[gbno1fan]

I had assumed all along that the workers would go over on a boat, remain under our control, and assist with building a road to hook up their jungle luxuries.

And I never thought of that angle on it. I had assumed all along that we would have to trade them over as slaves. It sure would speed up the process if there wasn't the slave productivity level - plus we would get to explore their land!

Two big problems: Why put in worker turns to hook up another luxury that someone else controls?

By helping speed up the process of getting TNT rebuilt after their war, we gain a stronger ally. The faster they catch up, the less of a chance there is of Dnuts and KISS annihilating TNT - and that is in our better interests.

We'd have to protect those workers from barbs and backstabbing with a couple of hoplites.

I really don't think we have to worry about TNT backstabbing us, and if Dnuts or KISS are in TNT's lands, we have a lot more to worry about than losing 4-6 workers to backstabbing.

 

[classical_hero]

We are we putting o much risk for so little reward. I'd say that we go for the Military techs and thus we can finidh off KISS once and for all.

 

[gbno1fan]

We are we putting o much risk for so little reward. I'd say that we go for the Military techs and thus we can finidh off KISS once and for all.

That would be a waste of our civ traits. Greece is not [usually] a warmongering nation. In a game with 3 other human teams loaded with some of the best civ players there are, we need to maximize every strength and advantage we have while minimizing weaknesses. To maximize our strengths, we must play as peaceful as we can, and reap in the joys of being a commercial/scientific civ. Now is the time for building infrastructure and setting ourselves up for a great endgame.

 

[classical_hero]

The problem is that we all know that PBEMs will finish via a Military victory, so we are not playing that well if we are going to try and be peaceful. We really need to take this game but the horns and start getting our troops into places where they will do great damage.

 

[gbno1fan]

The problem is that we all know that PBEMs will finish via a Military victory,

Actually, the problem is this is the first Team PBEM game. We don't know how it is going to end. Things end up differently when each team has multiple voices, to talk people out of putting themselves into positions they have no hope to recover from (obviously TNT has learned this lesson the hard way).

I really think there are too many good players in this game to allow any military victory. Wars will be too hard to win decisively, as defenses will be tactically strong, and whatever team is not involved in the war will pull away from the fighters.

 

[classical_hero]

Actually, the problem is this is the first Team PBEM game. We don't know how it is going to end. Things end up differently when each team has multiple voices, to talk people out of putting themselves into positions they have no hope to recover from (obviously TNT has learned this lesson the hard way).

I really think there are too many good players in this game to allow any military victory. Wars will be too hard to win decisively, as defenses will be tactically strong, and whatever team is not involved in the war will pull away from the fighters.

You can overcome any defence by haaving a great attack, which is possible if we continue to to build up the core and thus we soon will be able to get a massive army if we wanted to. We really could shut off research for awhile and build up and army that we smash KISS. To be a good player you must know how to war effectively and most players here will know that.

 

[General_W]

By helping speed up the process of getting TNT rebuilt after their war, we gain a stronger ally. The faster they catch up, the less of a chance there is of Dnuts and KISS annihilating TNT - and that is in our better interests.

I agree - Helping TNT get luxuries asap, will help TNT reserach faster and grow faster... both of which indirectly help us.
Before we do this though, we need to make sure that TNT isn't just on the verge of getting attacked again by the Dnuts… Specifically, I'm worried about this line from Fe's Chat…

donsigw: yes I am worried we have only 8 turns left of peace ... there has been no communicaiton between us

If the Dnut are going to launch a massive attack 7 turns from now, TNT probably won't control the Gems by the time we get there anyway.

The more I think about this, the more it seems plausible that KISS and the Dnuts are getting ready to launch a massive joint-attack on TNT. It would explain KISS's sudden change of heart in wanting peace with us, it explains why Dnuts won't even talk to TNT, and it makes good sense on a strategic level.

I may pick this idea up again in the Grand Strategy thread – but before we get too far down the road in talking about trading workers with TNT, we better get more info about the chances for continued peace between TNT and Dnuts.

 

[Chamnix]

If we send a worker to Battle Isle but keep control we are still spending 2 gpt for worker support. Whatever we get in return has to be worth at least 2 gpt or we would be better off just disbanding the worker (and you all know how I'd feel about that ). Gems (or silks) are worth 0 gpt to us right now.

As far as warmongering goes (since that seems to have drifted here), the question of being able to finish off KISS once and for all has not been settled. If we could finish off KISS, then we should - no doubt about it. Personally, I think our chances are better now than when we both have Military Tradition (we won't beat KISS there by any reasonable margin if we can even beat them there at all). If we are not attacking now, then we are forcing ourselves to wait until another war tech lead opens up - i.e. the early Industrial Age. In that case, the Great Library plan makes sense to get us to the Industrial Age significantly before the KISSNuts - it's not necessarily planning for a peaceful victory, it is planning for a wider tech lead for an easier military victory later.

 

[fe3333au]

I have requested that Defence look into the possibility of sending another unit over to Battle Isle ... this one to explore the TNT black.

Perhaps we can add a worker or more with him ... that way we still control the units and TNT get the full benefit of hearty greek workers ... TNT can in turn pay us a 1 gold per turn rate for when they are engaged in projects.

 

[fe3333au]

Chat with Donsig ... moved from where I posted incorrectly in Doughnut Files

fe3333au: hi matey ... looking forward to raeding your new scrolls
fe3333au: *reading
donsigw: hello!
donsigw: I didn't *find* any scrolls this time
fe3333au: Isn't TNT due to release another set of 'scrolls' ?
donsigw: yes - but I didn't have time to do one
fe3333au: Oh well I hope the editorial style will still be of the same standard ... the news reading demographic can be quite fickle
donsigw: lol
donsigw: looks like someone is late with their turn

Reminder not to leak sensitive intel to the Press
fe3333au: I also hope that our relationship will not be broadcast to the world

donsigw: no, the scrolls will generally just make the nuts more mad at us
fe3333au: You guys LOL
donsigw: my teammates don't know the war is over I guess
fe3333au: LOL
donsigw: it is funny because after Carpetbomb was torched I wanted to continue the war but they all went for peace
fe3333au: democracy in action LOL

We still working on the Great Library Gambit
fe3333au: Now I must appologise that we have not had a chance to send you a proposal yet
donsigw: The GL gambit has been well rec'd by my team mates
donsigw: we'll have engineering in 3
donsigw: 2 if the nutters play thier turn tonight
fe3333au: excellent ... I think we can really get a jump on our neighbours

Nutters on the move
donsigw: The nutters have moved a few mounted warriors near our silk city
fe3333au: We are still hammering out a deal ... not sure how it will end up though ... KISS are being their usual superior attitude
donsigw: peace treaty ends in five or six turns
donsigw: they will get even more tweaked next turn when we build our fourth jungle city and try to get one of the wines
fe3333au: They may be just after their own source of silk
donsigw: once we rush our library and expand our borders we'll have all four ... we will probably rush walls there first though ;-)
fe3333au: Hope it is defended well ... yes
donsigw: moving a few pikemen down for them to see

Proposal will be sent soon
fe3333au: good ... we will have something for you to peruse prior to getting Engineering
donsigw: you mean the proposal?
fe3333au: Yes

Build plan for Silk City
donsigw: if the nutters are right outside our cultural borders (one tile from the city) will they see the city walls?
fe3333au: Maybe ... isn't the graphic of the city altered to show it?
donsigw: I think it is. I want them to see those walls soon!
fe3333au: yes ... and it is not an overtly aggressive action

TNT sending pigeons to Nutters
donsigw: They sent us a message asking about trade and we replied that we were too busing learning to defend our cities to build roads ... asked them if they'd disband some mounted warriors so we could have military parity ... haven't heard back from them
fe3333au: LOL ... that was nicely bold

Chivalry Surprise option
fe3333au: Well we have Chivalry ready and waiting ...
donsigw: I hope we won't be needing it. So you have started on theology already?
fe3333au: yes ... but slowly (not flat out) just marking time until we know for sure what is happening with KISS
donsigw: I bet the Galls bave backed down a bit since your power has increased lately
fe3333au: I don't trust them ... we are AVERAGE to them in strength ... STRONG to you and Nutters
donsigw: I take it your lux situation hasn't improved?
fe3333au: no

<TNT Harbour soon but no direct trade link yet?
donsigw: I think we're 5 turns from our harbor ... don't know if we'll be able to trade right away or not

Gems for Workers
donsigw: did greekguy ever send you all a message our workers for gems?
fe3333au: waiting for Harbours in 7ish turns ? <Didn't read aboove >
donsigw: Harbor in 5 but I'm not sure if we have an explored rout to your harbor
fe3333au: No nothing from greekguy yet ... we can probably address it all when we discuss the Great Library Gambit
donsigw: we want lots of workers ... got any cities that can pump them out?
fe3333au: possibly ... we are looking into it now
donsigw: any talk yet of how many workers gems are worth?
fe3333au: no as I said we are busy with the 'other' negotiations at the moment .. and the way the game is speeding through turns ... we have little breathing space

What TNT looking as fair trade for Gems
fe3333au: Do you have a number in your head?
donsigw: we thought about asking for 4 or 5 - they will be very slow compared to ours
fe3333au: maybe another option we ship a couple over and work on projects under your direction
donsigw: a possibility - though they will still be slower than ours

Real Reason for workers is to get Citizens
donsigw: actually, we want a few to settle in our cities
fe3333au: faster than slaves
fe3333au: Oh ... quick population rushes
donsigw: yes - especially where we are building the GL!!!! ... will boost production very nicely ... plus it would cement our relationship by having Greek citizens in our cities instead of Greek slaves
fe3333au:

Don't Believe everything you read in the Press
donsigw: of course we have to get those wines hooked up first. We read that article about Greek women
fe3333au: All false ... those blue painted faces were not attractive and their manners are appaling ... our ladies prefer a more refined gentleman ... although some did sucumb to experimenting with this rough trade
donsigw: lol

Signing off
fe3333au: anyway ... just letting you know about the reason for not sending you anything yet
donsigw: ok - looks like we're on hold till the Iroqi play a turn anyway ... try to get some discussion going about workers for gems
fe3333au: k

 

[fe3333au]

Here is what Gen_W posted about the above.

Excellent work as always Fe!

However, if Nuts and KISS are not working together on the military techs, then the Great Library may not be that valuable to us, except as a denial wonder/insurance.

It's hard to believe that KISS hasn't worked out a "technology-alliance" type thing with Dnuts... but current indications are that they haven't. This is pure folly on KISS's part, and good for us! But it may make the Great Library mostly a waste of time.
Unless I'm missing something??

Still &#8211; if TNT gets the Great Library and only gets 1 tech from it, then we can probably get all their extra luxuries for our Technology. (And we&#8217;ll want to give TNT all our tech eventually to get their free IA tech anyway)


Finally, we may want to start sounding the alarm with TNT about our suspicions that KISS may try to attack them. - that may make them a bit more cautious with the Dnuts. At this stage we may not want to overplay it &#8211; say something like &#8220;some members of our team are worried that KISS is making peace with us so that they can turn their armies across the sea to your fertile lands&#8230; just a friendly warning from your paranoid allies&#8221;

Anyway &#8211; just some late night musings from me.
Eager to hear what you (and others) think.

 

[Chamnix]

donsigw: The GL gambit has been well rec'd by my team mates

So it's really up to us if we want them to do it....

donsigw: once we rush our library and expand our borders we'll have all four

They shouldn't bother - Dnuts can take them anytime from the cultural expansion. They should spend their money on something useful.

donsigw: if the nutters are right outside our cultural borders (one tile from the city) will they see the city walls?

If they can see the city, then they can see the walls - they can't necessarily see the city from outside its borders, but they can if they have uncovered that territory previously.

donsigw: I hope we won't be needing it. So you have started on theology already?
fe3333au: yes ... but slowly (not flat out) just marking time until we know for sure what is happening with KISS

We haven't actually started yet - we may want to switch research paths with them (if we don't use Great Library gambit).

donsigw: we want lots of workers ... got any cities that can pump them out?
fe3333au: possibly ... we are looking into it now
donsigw: any talk yet of how many workers gems are worth?

Approximately zero right now.

donsigw: actually, we want a few to settle in our cities

Not possible - the game will not permit us to trade them workers.

As GW said, The Great Library is only useful as insurance, but with TNT as a partner, I think we may need all the insurance we can get.

 

[fe3333au]

I'll start on a proposal soon ... want to get KISS nailed first.

But crux is ...

TNT
> Turn research off ... generate cash ... build Great Library.
> Will get Chivalry when they want it (may wish to keep secret in order to surprise Nuts or KISS if attacked)
> Library will get Monarchy ... and techs after Engineering.
> Cash will allow TNT to rush buildings and expand and be ready for mass upgrades Horse to Cavalry.
> Once Great Library is neutralised will receive all techs that MIA has.

MIA
> Research the Theology - Education - beyond path.
> Will hold off giving Education and beyond techs until the Great Library is neutralised.
> Receive techs beyond Engineering whenthey come (maybe disguised to hide the arrangement from the others)
> Gems and/or Silk given in return for us doing all the research.
> If KISS peace, possibly units and/or workers sent to help TNT.

Other
> Inform them Library will not work to secure all silk (why didn't they plant it to control three )
> We cannot send workers ... tested it with Nuts but didn't appear on the screen as an option.

Comments and/or changes.

 

[Chamnix]

Here was my earlier attempt at a proposal - the turn # may have to be changed, but I think the rest of it still applies and should be a good starting point.

 

[Black_Hole]

I'll start on a proposal soon ... want to get KISS nailed first.

But crux is ...

TNT
> Turn research off ... generate cash ... build Great Library.
> Will get Chivalry when they want it (may wish to keep secret in order to surprise Nuts or KISS if attacked)
> Library will get Monarchy ... and techs after Engineering.
> Cash will allow TNT to rush buildings and expand and be ready for mass upgrades Horse to Cavalry.
> Once Great Library is neutralised will receive all techs that MIA has.

MIA
> Research the Theology - Education - beyond path.
> Will hold off giving Education and beyond techs until the Great Library is neutralised.
> Receive techs beyond Engineering whenthey come (maybe disguised to hide the arrangement from the others)
> Gems and/or Silk given in return for us doing all the research.
> If KISS peace, possibly units and/or workers sent to help TNT.

Other
> Inform them Library will not work to secure all silk (why didn't they plant it to control three )
> We cannot send workers ... tested it with Nuts but didn't appear on the screen as an option.

Comments and/or changes.

Workers need to be in your capital to send them

 

[General_W]

I like the way you summed the “Crux” of the issue Fe. I agree with all that.

Also, I like Chamnix’s proposal for the most part…

Spoiler Chamnix Proposal for TNT treaty :

1. TNT will complete Engineering no later than turn 120 - they will provide it to MIA immediately upon completion.

2. MIA will provide Chivalry to TNT anytime upon request. TNT can have it immediately following the signing of this document if desired, or they can build horsemen for upgrade first.

3. TNT will build the Great Library. TNT guarantees completion of the Great Library no later than turn 155 if nobody else completes it before then.

4. TNT will provide MIA any or all techs obtained from the Great Library immediately upon MIA's request.

5. If the Great Library is completed by Dnuts or KISS before TNT and before turn 155, then MIA will provide TNT all techs researched by MIA up to that point for 25% of the monopoly beaker cost. The techs will be provided to TNT immediately, but TNT would not be required to provide the gold until 30 turns following the gifting of the techs. I'm open for comments on this one - I think that since we did all the research and TNT got to use their gold for rushing that we should get some compensation, but I don't want to be greedy, and I really don't think this scenario is likely at all.

6. Upon the earlier of the Great Library being neutralized by Dnuts or KISS reaching Education, or once the Great Library provides Military Tradition, MIA will give TNT all Middle Age techs that MIA has researched at that point. MIA guarantees to provide at least as many Middle Age techs to TNT as TNT provided to MIA from the Great Library. If MIA has not completed enough techs to repay TNT in full at that point, then MIA will continue to give techs to TNT as soon as they are completed until payment is satisfied.

7. TNT guarantees the safety of the Great Library. Until both Dnuts and KISS have Education, TNT guarantees that the town containing the Great Library will not be captured. If there are at least as many enemy units within striking range of the Great Library town as there are defenders in the town, then TNT agrees to abandon the Great Library town rather than risk it falling into enemy hands.

8. None of the techs provided by TNT to MIA may be traded sold or gifted to any other civ by MIA, and none of the techs provided by MIA to TNT may be traded sold or gifted to any other civ by TNT.

But I think point #5 should read more like…

“If the Great Library is completed by Dnuts or KISS before TNT and before turn 155, then MIA will provide TNT all techs researched by MIA up to that point and TNT will provide MIA with 25% of the Gold TNT accumulated during the period of building the Great Library when TNT was stockpiling gold instead of researching (this amount will not exceed 300 gold). TNT would not be required to provide the gold until 30 turns following the gifting of the techs. We believe this is unlikely, and hope that this whole clause is irrelevant.”

Obviously more of it will have to be modified to fit the “crux” of the issue, but it’s still a good starting place!

 

[General_W]

New into our team mailbox&#8230;
(Came with the save)

Official communique
Greetings Friends,

We eagerly await your formal proposal regarding our Great Library Gambit. We feel we should tell you that there are only four turns left in our peace treaty with the Iroqi. Should they attack us in the near future we would have to abandon the Great Library Gambit since we would need that city working on the Great Library to contribute to the war effort. We thought it best that we provide for this possibility in our agreement so that neither of our countries (nor our Science Alliance) would suffer if the Iroqi suddently return to their savage ways. We would like your thoughts on how to proceed in the event we have to abandon the GLG.

We will know engineering next turn and will have a harbor the turn after that!

signed
donsig IV
President of the Republic of Iron
Hereditary Grand Vizeer of the Ironic and Iroqi Peoples

What have I been saying?!? TNT is practically begging us to tell them how to run their empire! (As well they should!)
We won&#8217;t even have to manipulate these allies&#8230; they&#8217;ll ask us to do it!

 

[Chamnix]

On the plus side, at least they realize they shouldn't build wonders in their most productive towns during a war. On the down side, I'm not sure how to handle the possibility of their not building the Great Library. We are talking about having TNT not research - if they don't research and abandon the GL, then we just don't get techs. As long as it happens in 4 turns or so, it shouldn't be a problem, but they abandon the GL in 20 turns, it would be irritating.

I'm surprised Dnuts and KISS don't have Feudalism or Monotheism yet. I think we should try for the Great Library Gambit as proposed and start Theology. If Dnuts and KISS research this slowly, we can catch up on the bottom half of the tech tree no problem if things don't work as planned.

EDIT - never mind that comment about them researching slowly - they only got Engineering on turn 108. I'll have to put more thought into this.

 

[General_W]

I'm eager to see what alternatives you can come up with Mr. President..

But in the meantime – TNT seems pretty eager to hear from us, and we probably ought to send at least a little something to let them know we're not ignoring them.

In my on-going effort to save Fe time and spur early discussion, here's a rough draft for a letter that we could hopefully send asap.

Dear Friends, Allies, and all around wise-guys,

We have to apologize for our slowness in responding to your letters. Rest assured, we are working hard on crafting a new proposal to continue to vault our peoples to world domination.

Unfortunately, our efforts have been hampered by ongoing and tedious negotiations with KISS. At several points, these negotiations have been on the point of breaking down and war starting. Obviously, if we can't get a deal with KISS and have to go to war with them, our long term strategy will change dramatically. If we do manage to get a peace deal, then our strategy will be totally different again.

Hence our difficulty in putting together a long-term vision to synch up our respective strategies. (We can't match our strategy to yours if we don't even have a firm strategy ourselves! )

As negotiations have progressed with KISS, many members of MIA have gotten the growing impression that KISS is only pursuing these negotiations because they want to use their army to attack a different target. Obviously, as KISS has expressed a desire to attack you back when our relationship with KISS was more open, many MIAers are worried that once/if we have a peace deal, KISS may turn their army of Gallic Swords overseas to your lands.
Now, we feel that this would be stupid of them and we're optimistic that you would handily show them the error of their ways! (KISS has done dumber things before)
However – If you're also fighting a war with Dnuts… a KISS invasion suddenly becomes a bigger problem.

We understand that dealing with the Iroq can be just as frustrating as dealing with KISS – but we wanted to give you a heads up – in case there is anything you can do to secure continued peace with the Nutters.

(Please don't misunderstand – these are only suspicions from the paranoid among us. We have no hard evidence whatsoever of any KISS plans. If we DO get wind of something concrete, you can be sure we'll let you know!)

Anyway, this is a long letter for having said so little – but we're confident you'll be patient with us while we try to nail down what's happening with KISS so that we can turn our attention back to long term planning with your people.

All the best,
Your friends over the Sea,
Team MIA

What do you all think?