TNT Files - Term 6

[Chamnix]

I wasn't a big fan of the whole gold accumulated thing from the beginning, mainly because it is unverifiable - we will have no idea what they have accumulated, earned, or otherwise. I'd be more in favor of just dropping that even though it was in our draft.

General_W's proposed "help each other as much as possible" clause is toothless, but it is also insincere. If they go to war, we are not going to help them as much as possible, we are going to help them in whatever way keeps them around to help us while inconveniencing us as little as possible. If Dnuts attack, then we are certainly are not going to attack Dnuts which would be helping as much as possible. I'd rather not promise anything we didn't intend to deliver on.

Peace seems reasonable. I was ready to rant about the Modern Era being too long a commitment, but as long as we can cancel prematurely with 15 turns notice, I guess it's OK. It doesn't do us any good since TNT is not the least bit threatening, so is the goodwill we get from adding that in worth the small chance we will want to attack TNT earlier? I don't have very strong feelings either way.

@peter grimes - the issue about the building the GL if TNT is at war isn't the defense of that town, it is that they need the shields to produce military.

 

[General_W]

I wasn't a big fan of the whole gold accumulated thing from the beginning, mainly because it is unverifiable - we will have no idea what they have accumulated, earned, or otherwise. I'd be more in favor of just dropping that even though it was in our draft.

Dropping it and replacing it with what?
I know it falls far short of ideal – but at some point we're just going to have to trust TNT – or else pick a hard and fast number like 300 gold or 25% of monopoly beaker cost.

I assume you are advocating those 2 options?

General_W's proposed "help each other as much as possible" clause is toothless, but it is also insincere.

Excuse me! I don't think this is insincere! (and coming from the man advocating a sneak attack on KISS before the ink is dry on our peace treaty none the less!)
We can't attack KISS and we may not be in a good position to attack Dnuts – but there are still other ways to help TNT in their war! Maybe some free workers? Maybe some free money or free military intelligence. Maybe privateers will be on the scene by then?
There are lots ways to "help as much as possible" without declaring open war.
Still – it could be changed to "help as much as is reasonably possible" to make it seem a bit less promising.

Peace seems reasonable. I was ready to rant about the Modern Era being too long a commitment, but as long as we can cancel prematurely with 15 turns notice, I guess it's OK. It doesn't do us any good since TNT is not the least bit threatening, so is the goodwill we get from adding that in worth the small chance we will want to attack TNT earlier?

I think it is VERY worth it. In any scenario where we attack TNT, KISS and Dnuts come out the big winners. Making it clearly not in our best interest. The more TNT trusts and listens to us… the more we can maneuver them to hamper KISS and Dnuts… I think this sweeping peace language WILL help build trust and give us another string tied to TNT to help us move them where we need them.

 

[peter grimes]

Very good points, Chamnix, especially about the shields diverted to Wonder production vs. Military. I should have remembered that from earlier

Also, you raise a really good point about the 'as much as possible' phrase. There is a very real risk of TNT warring Dnuts, and we should not get too embroiled. You put it quite succinctly, and we would all do well to remember this phrase:

we are going to help them in whatever way keeps them around to help us while inconveniencing us as little as possible

In fact, that really should be our guiding principle is all relations with everyone.

Here are some proposed changes (in bold):

TNT and MIA hereby also agree to a sweeping peace deal of mutual non-aggression and military cooperation.
* TNT and MIA units will not attack or hinder each other in any way. TNT and MIA will both seek ways to help the other in military endeavors if necessary.
* This peace deal stands alone from any agreements regarding the Great Library. While the Great Library deal will end (either by completion of the Library or by less desirable means) this peace deal will not expire until both teams reach the Modern Era.
* It may only be pre-maturely canceled by 15 turns written notice to the other team.

EDIT: x-post w/ G_W.

 

[Chamnix]

I know it falls far short of ideal – but at some point we're just going to have to trust TNT – or else pick a hard and fast number like 300 gold or 25% of monopoly beaker cost.

I like the beaker approach – picking a number essentially puts a cap on the amount of gold since TNT will choose the cheapest, so a number like 300 is good from them, not so good for us, but I can live with it. In fact, 300 gold is 25% of the monopoly beaker price of Theology, so 300 gold is what we will get if we give them at least Theology given those 2 choices of payment.

When are we willing to take less than 300 gold for Theology (or Theology + Education)? I would say never if we are giving them 2 techs. I don’t care if they only earned 600 gold in the time it took us to research 2 techs - since those techs won’t help them win the war, we should just let them use their money for the war instead of selling our techs ultra cheap.

We are earning about 160gpt. Even if we assume TNT is earning 100 gpt (which is probably too high), then if we complete Theology in 5, TNT can buy it from us for 125 gold?! Even for 1 tech, I don’t like that payment option.

Excuse me! I don't think this is insincere! (and coming from the man advocating a sneak attack on KISS before the ink is dry on our peace treaty none the less!)
We can't attack KISS and we may not be in a good position to attack Dnuts – but there are still other ways to help TNT in their war! Maybe some free workers? Maybe some free money or free military intelligence. Maybe privateers will be on the scene by then?
There are lots ways to "help as much as possible" without declaring open war.

First, I was misquoted – I’m sure I said “attack” not “sneak attack” and “Turn 165” not “Turn 145”. Anyway, there are lots of ways to help, and we will choose some of them, but I still think saying “help as much as possible” or even “as much as reasonably possible” is untrue considering there will be lots of possible ways to help that we will not even seriously consider.

And, you are falsely attributing something I said to Warmonger in Chief – clearly that title belongs to classical_hero. I am a mere Apprentice Warmonger who couldn’t even bring himself to vote for war in our poll. I really have to do something about the press in this civilization… But I agree that it is difficult to imagine circumstances where we would want to attack TNT. On the other hand, I’m not sure how much goodwill is really worth – it seems we try to build up goodwill with people, but it doesn’t actually help us (KISS cancelling our original deal, TNT not giving Engineering, etc.). That’s why I don’t have strong feelings about it.

 

[General_W]

Ok – I like Peter's change to help "if necessary" – but maybe we could make it even less promising by saying "seek ways to help the other in all situations"
I think we can sincerely try to live up to that. After all, we're just promising to "seek ways" there's no promise of anything in there and no specific reference to the military to be misinterpreted… but I sill get a strangely warm and fuzzy feeling when I read it.


I really do NOT like the "both teams reach the Modern Era" change. By the time we're hitting the modern era, TNT moves from helpful ally and pawn into the territory of potential enemy. After we use them to acquire air power and begin our big campaign against KISS, we want to begin to pull away from ALL other teams. That's end game time… and I don't think we want to have our hands tied if we need to drop a couple nukes on TNT to make sure they don't try something stupid against us.


Re: our Technology fire-sale prices… maybe we just need to tell TNT that we've crunched some numbers, and we don't think it's a good idea to try to keep track of what TNT earns each turn and since that number is unverifiable anyway, it'll just save a lot of argument and mistrust if we pick some pre-set gold numbers. We can propose 300 gold PER tech we give them. (and point out that this is 25% of the cost of Theology and even less of a % for each tech after that)
What do you think of that idea?

P.S. Beware him would would seek to deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master. Long live the Tribune! Free the Journalist! Power to the people!

 

[Chamnix]

Makes sense to me.

 

[peter grimes]

I really do NOT like the "both teams reach the Modern Era" change. By the time we're hitting the modern era, TNT moves from helpful ally and pawn into the territory of potential enemy.

I agree with you - I was mistaken. I wasn't thinking through the fact that once we hit the IA, we will likely beeline for Theory of Evolution, and the Flight path, attempting to run away with the game.

So, if we propose a peace until the modern age, it leaves open to interpretation exactly when that expires: one team, both? At the same time, we have an out with the 15 turns clause. It's not an easy out, but it works.

When we start to run away with the game, I think we're really going to want to make sure that we have 2 teams locked into peace with us. We will be the Big Boy On The Playground, and a likely target for a 3 vs. 1.

 

[General_W]

Ok, based on all our comments and discussion, here's a proposed letter and treaty for TNT.

Eager to get everyone's feedback!

Dear TNT,

Thanks for getting back to us so quickly. It's exciting to be moving towards formalizing our strong relationship into treaty. Many of your changes are fair, and we're happy to accept them.

We do have a few points that you raised we need to discuss.

Discussion 1) Technology
We're glad you brought up the issue of trading technologies. And while we're happy to agree to not trading away any techs you give us – we believe we may need the flexibility to trade away some of our own research. Please understand – the whole point of our Alliance of Science with you is so that we can both pull far ahead of the other teams in technology. We have no intention of helping the other teams stay current in tech. However, we have learned that a key tech trade now and then can be a diplomatically valuable thing. We believe that if you will agree to our retaining some flexibility with our tech we may be able to find ways to thwart and hinder the developing KISS/Nuts alliance… which if it develops fully will be very bad for both of us.
One thing worth pointing out is that we'll be focusing on the Peaceful end of the tech tree, and since we're happy to promise we won't trade any tech you give us, you can sleep easy knowing that no advanced military techs will fall into the hands of the Nuts from us.
It's entirely possible (and maybe even likely) that'll we'll never use our flexibility to make any trades – but if the opportunity arises, it is important to us to be able to do everything we can to stunt the KISS/Nut relationship.

Hopefully that makes sense.
We, of course, welcome your feedback.


Discussion 2) Backup Plans if TNT fails to get the Great Library
First off – we hope all these backup plans are totally unnecessary.
However, if they do come into play, we want to make sure that all sides can feel good about what happens to salvage what we can.
We've crunched some numbers, and we don't think it's a good idea to try to keep track of what TNT earns each turn and since that number is unverifiable anyway, it'll just save a lot of argument and mistrust if we pick some pre-set gold numbers.
We would now like to propose 300 gold PER tech we provide you. Let us point out that this is 25% of the beaker cost of Theology and even less of a % for each tech after that. We feel that this is an insanely good deal, and by just having a fixed price, we'll avoid any ugliness should things go down the tubes with the GL.


Discussion 3) A Peace Deal
While our two nations have enjoyed a long history of good will, we think it's high time we codified this part of our alliance into a formal agreement of peace and cooperation.


We have adjusted the proposed treaty to match all 3 of the above points.
We're looking forward to seeing what you think and hearing back from you!


Part I – Great Library Treaty
1. Chivalry & Engineering

a) MIA will provide Chivalry to TNT anytime upon request. TNT can have it immediately following the signing of this document if desired, or they can build horsemen for upgrade first.

b) TNT will provide MIA with Engineering as soon as this treaty is signed.​

2. TNT will build the Great Library.

TNT guarantees completion of the Great Library no later than turn 155 if nobody else completes it before then. If TNT fails to build the Great Library by turn 155 and no one else has built the Great Library then TNT will pay MIA a penalty fee of 300 gold. This penalty need not be paid all at once but payment must be completed by turn 185. (Note: if this point is actually reached and TNT is close to completing the Great Library then MIA agrees to be reasonable about an extension of this agreement.)​

3. Use of the Great Library

TNT will provide MIA any or all techs obtained from the Great Library immediately upon MIA's request.​

4. Provision for if TNT is attacked

If TNT is attacked by KISS or the Doughnuts before TNT completes the Great Library then TNT reserves the right to nullify this agreement. If TNT chooses to nullify the agreement then TNT will pay MIA 300 gold per technology that MIA gives to TNT. MIA will give TNT all the techs MIA currently has when TNT is attacked – unless TNT wishes to delay the receipt of these techs. Payment need not be made all at once and the total is not due until 30 turns after TNT is again at peace.​

5. Provision for if TNT is beaten to the Great Library

If the Great Library is completed by Dnuts or KISS before TNT and before turn 155, then MIA will provide TNT all techs researched by MIA up to that point and TNT will provide MIA with 300 gold per technology that MIA provides to TNT.
TNT will not be required to provide all of the gold until 30 turns following the gifting of the techs.​

6. Safety of the Great Library

TNT guarantees the safety of the Great Library. Until both Dnuts and KISS have Education, TNT guarantees that the town containing the Great Library will not be captured. If there are at least as many enemy units within striking range of the Great Library town as there are defenders in the town, then TNT agrees to abandon the Great Library town rather than risk it falling into enemy hands.​

7. Technology Trade Limits

None of the techs provided by TNT to MIA may be traded sold or gifted to any other civ by MIA and none of the techs provided by MIA to TNT may be traded sold or gifted to any other civ by TNT.​

8. End of the Great Library Treaty

Upon the earlier of the Great Library being neutralized by Dnuts or KISS reaching Education, or once the Great Library provides Military Tradition, MIA will give TNT all Middle Age techs that MIA has researched at that point. MIA guarantees to provide at least as many Middle Age techs to TNT as TNT provided to MIA from the Great Library. If MIA has not completed enough techs to repay TNT in full at that point, then MIA will continue to give techs to TNT as soon as they are completed until payment is satisfied.​

Part II – Peace Treaty

TNT and MIA hereby also agree to a sweeping peace deal of mutual non-aggression and military cooperation.
* TNT and MIA units will not attack or hinder each other in any way. TNT and MIA will both seek ways to help the other in all situations.
* This peace deal stands alone from any agreements regarding the Great Library. While the Great Library deal will end (either by completion of the successful conclusion of the treaty or by less desirable means) this peace deal will not expire until the Modern Era.
* It may only be pre-maturely canceled by 15 turns written notice to the other team.​

Looking forward to hearing from you!
Your friends and Allies,
MIA

Whew!
I reorganized the treaty to be easier to read and made all our changes, with explanations above.

What do you think?

 

[Chamnix]

 

[fe3333au]

I really like it ... well done

I'd like this to be sent asap ... if no-one has pointed out any problems ... I would like Gen_W to send it as soon as he is able

Thanks for taking the slack guys

 

[General_W]

ok - I'll send it off!

Glad you like it Fe!

EDIT: Sent to TNT's gmail account - and to Donsig and Greekguy via PM.

 

[fe3333au]

Donsig got it just before sending the save ...

Straight to the point
fe3333au: hey buddy ... you should be receiving our updated proposal very soon
donsigw: just looking at it now
fe3333au: from Gen_W?
donsigw: I went in to send you guys the save and then all of a sudden the agreement was there ... just readng it now
fe3333au: I'll open it now ... just in case you have questions

TNT have sent Turn
donsigw: ok - I played the turn and didn not send you engineering since we hadn't heard from you
fe3333au: that's OK ... we will send you a document for signing when we have agreed to wording and clauses
donsigw: I like the idea of including the peace treaty!

<Nutter Peace up for renegotiation>
donsigw: our treaty with the nutters is up next turn. We talked about a five turn extension but never signed anything
fe3333au: I'm worried about KISS' intentions ... But good thing is that they have not changed their military value yet
donsigw: We're finally average compared to the nuts
fe3333au: That's good
donsigw: I can't worry too much about the Galls. They's need a not of ships to send over a decent force. I am a bit worried that they (the Galls) would try a sneak attack to initiate their Golden Age.

No Workers can be traded
fe3333au: Pity about the workers not being able to trade
donsigw: Did you all try to send workers?
fe3333au: apparently Chamnix tried :-(
fe3333au: But you can still test it ... maybe things have somehow changed

Gems for Sale
donsigw: Bummer. So has there been any talk about what you would pay for gems?
fe3333au: We could possible set some lookouts ... or hire out some workers ... off top of my head
fe3333au: The rules forbid you 'taking' our workers by military means ... as it would mean declaring a false war
donsigw: A look out or two would be good for starters. No need to hire out workers. Ours can cut through jungle pretty fast. I take it your gold situation is not good?

MIA busy on homefront
fe3333au: we will concentrate on research and such like ... and boster defences ... we live in a paranoid world

What TNT want for Gems?
fe3333au: Out of interest ... what sort of cash would you want for Gems?
donsigw: not sure. cash isn't really a problem for us right now. I guess I'm interested in whether the lux would help you research faster

Tech Intel
donsigw: BTW, the Galls now have feudalism
fe3333au: nice to know ... KISS and Nuts seem to be cementing an Alliance or sorts
donsigw: yeah - they both have engineering I think

Knightly musings
fe3333au: so any further thoughts about building a couple of horses to upgrade in times of need? ... good thing is that they are well hidden in the Military Strength calculations
donsigw: not really. hanging on to cash right now. can always switch to horsemen if a problem arises. Working on ensuring we have enough pikemen to defend our cities and our luxes.

<TNT want to show Military Strength as a deterent>
donsigw: I don't really want to have our strength undervalued. I want them to know we are getting stronger
fe3333au: I see what you mean ... good tactic

Query about our bank account
donsigw: so are you having to lower research rates to keep the lux rate up?
fe3333au: We are utilising our two traits to the maximum benefit ... We have peace treaty with KISS now
donsigw: Greeks are scientific and what else?
fe3333au: Cash
fe3333au: two good peacefull traits
donsigw: yes - so then you do have some spare change? what's a reasonable cash payment for gems?

<We hear you ... You are desparte for Cash ... Gem value needed>
fe3333au: Regarding your need for cash maybe we can come up with something ... I'll put it out for comment ... maybe you can think of an arrangement as well
donsigw: I'm no good at calculating what things are worth in this darn game. And we'll eventually have extra silks and incense you can buy. We need 150g just to rush a library in our outlying cities. Do you think that's too much to ask for one lux?
fe3333au: hmmm ... I am like you ... I'll let our bean counters work on it
donsigw: maybe you should suggest they start counting and then make us an offer
fe3333au: It will be addressed as soon as I post this chat

About the Treaty
donsigw: I think the proposed changes are ok but I think we might want to modify clauses 4 and 5 to allow us to refuse delivery of techs from you. We need a mechanism in place so we don't automatically end up owing you more than we could ever pay!
fe3333au: maybe you could pay with some luxes?

<If beaten to GL wonder ... all not lost>
fe3333au: because if you are beaten to GL ... you could always swap to Pyramids or another beneficial wonder
donsigw: we could include that possibility. I'm really hoping we won't ever need to invoke clauses 4 or 5 but you never know. Perhaps if your bean couinters set a reasonalbe price tag on luxes got tyhe gem trade we could use the same figures in this treaty?
fe3333au: yes that could be a solution to not breaking your bank

Request to slow down the game .... allowing time to sort out treaty
donsigw: I think we should start using our full 24 hours until we get this agreement hammered out and signed
fe3333au: k ... good talking with you
donsigw: good night

They are desparate for cash ... really really desparate!

Need to put a value on the Gems

 

[fe3333au]

Came with Save

Didn't send engineering yet since we haven't heard from you about GLiGA. The Galls now have feudalism.

Interested in those gems?

donsig

 

[fe3333au]

So we need to workout the gold value of Gems (and other luxes)

Thoughts

1. We should add a clause about getting money compensation if Luxes are lost before the 20 turns have finished.

2. Regarding Clause 6 ... Safety of GL ... this may be a problem as it is being built in their capital ... just a heads up on that, as I don't think it's been picked up by TNT yet. ... I don't think TNT will abandon their capital !!!
(as far as I know, a wonder cannot be disbanded once built, or am I wrong???)

 

[Chamnix]

I wouldn't say they are desperate for cash:

donsigw: not sure. cash isn't really a problem for us right now.

I hate to continue being a wet blanket on this, but gems are not worth anything to us right now, and if they are just going to waste our gold rushing libraries in outlying cities, then we can make much better use of our gold ourselves.

 

[Chamnix]

One reason why gems might be useful in the future - once we have a few marketplaces in our "second ring" towns, gems might push them into We Love the Emperor for Life Day and reduce corruption. They still won't help now since our only marketplace towns have negligible corruption anyway, but it is something to keep in mind.

With the information we have now, I am becoming convinced that the Great Library Gambit is a bad idea. New information from this turn - KISS has Feudalism, and Dnuts do not have Feudalism. The scenario of KISSNuts pooling their resources to race along the bottom of the tech tree no longer looks plausible. Now it seems that DNuts are researching Monotheism (as they said), and they will exchange Monotheism for Feudalism. KISS will complete Invention, but will only trade it to Dnuts after Dnuts have Theology. Gunpowder will be exchanged for Education. In addition, KISS' research pace is not all that fast.

The upshot of this is that we can expect at most Invention and Gunpowder from the Great Library, and that is only if the Dnuts can reach Education (so they can trade for Gunpowder) before TNT completes the GL. There is a very real chance that TNT will get only 1 tech from the Great Library.

The Great Library Gambit seemed like a good idea when it was conceived because it appeared it would give us 4, maybe 5 techs. Now that I'm betting on 1, maybe 2 techs, I think it is a big mistake.

I know it would be very awkward to tell TNT we just changed our minds, but if we explain the facts, hopefully we can just talk them out of the deal because it is not in their best interests either.

As a side note, it makes the issue of paying for gems easier. Since we will effortlessly outresearch TNT by a wide margin, we can occasionally give them an extra tech for luxuries. Since they don't like Chivalry for Engineering anymore, we can make it Chivalry and Theology for Engineering and gems for 60 turns. Why 60? They mentioned 150 gold as something that might be reasonable for 20 turns of gems, so I think asking for 60 turns is reasonable for a tech worth close to 1000 gold.

 

[azzaman333]

We might not have to tell that we changed our minds. We could just declare war on them...

 

[fe3333au]

Azza you are using an old Classical Hero avatar ???

 

[azzaman333]

Azza you are using an old Classical Hero avatar ???

Umm... . Check this link out i you want to understand.

 

[fe3333au]

April fool

It's just that you sounded like him as well