TNT Files Term 7 - 9

NEWS FLASH
>>> TNT are ... starting to piss me off to be perfectly honest ... now they are losing heart in playing cos they are bloody losing [pissed]

donsigw: Hey, The Galls have ivory from their city on our continent because they now have a harbor in Malice.
fe3333au: Bastards LOL
donsigw: yep

Rule against sharing Battle Logs ???
donsigw: is there a rule against sharing battle logs?
fe3333au: can't see why there would be ... it is what has happened to you ... but if you send it in future battles make sure not to cc to us or KISS will know we are getting it
donsigw: we have some strange rules in this game
fe3333au: it is basic pbem rules ... cos when someone gets turn they may not see attack ... but their units (in game) of course would ... therefore logs are sent

Strange Rules in general
donsigw: I don't mean the battle log rules, I mean the rules about renaming cities ... I posted in our team thread that we should send the logs to you
fe3333au: I was for it ... cos if we knew a city had been founded with iron nearby ... in a trade they could rename and sell us something else ... Therefore to rename it should be advertised in UN

TNT against sending us Battle Logs
donsigw: hmmm... there is opposition to giving your team our battle logs
fe3333au: how come? ... it is confidential and we can't calculate an estimate of KISS military units otherwise
donsigw: well, it would seem that our recent defeats have had a demoralizing effect
fe3333au: that's no good

:mad: Not Winning ... Don't want to play anymore !!!!
donsigw: my teammates are finally realizing we cannot win the war unless your team actively helps us (by actually fighting the Galls)

donsigw: Do you realize your team has more cities on the coast than we have in our whole entire republic?
fe3333au: can't do that yet still at peace but KISS will be ending their golden age soon

<Our Honour is frustrating to TNT>
donsigw: is there a rule that says MIA can't declare war on KISS or is the *can't* from the Greek Honor point of view?
fe3333au: Honour ... we do not break our word ... we decided that early in the game ... and although KISS and us have differences ... they have honour as well and if they give their word they keep it

<Bloody Testy>
donsigw: Has it occured to anyone on your team that there is little Honour in standing by while your little friend is beat up by the local bully?
fe3333au: sorry bad luck ... it is how we play the game

Attempt to chance subject
fe3333au: Are you affraid of Nuts?

<Ignored ... Donsig on a roll>
donsigw: so you should then be able to see why some on my team do not wish to share the battle logs ... we are at the point where we are not *afraid* of anything ... we feel it may be best to finish this quickly and get out

Shakehead and gritting teeth ... which was a painfull thing in RL!!!
fe3333au: I can't understand to be perfectly honest ... because you benefit from all the intel we give ... So your team is thinking of letting KISS finish you due to bordom or frustration?

donsigw: give me a second - my sister is on the phone
fe3333au: no worries

<Break for Caffine hit>


And the whinging continues !!! :cry:
donsigw: ok, I'm back ... We see no point in playing out a doomed position
donsigw: would you?
fe3333au: I probably would ... and have in pbem games ... cos I don't like to quit
donsigw: well, that's not how we play the game
fe3333au: should be fun even if losing
donsigw: losing like this is not fun ... we need a least a chance that we can win

Insult !!!! ... I grit teeth again ... now on Panadol !!!
donsigw: we don't even have friends we can count on
fe3333au: question - is this official ... like can we write a responce to TNT about this?
donsigw: sure it's official

And Still going on !!!!
donsigw: you guys don't seem to understand that there isn't much of a team left over here ... I play the turns and there is rarely any input any more
fe3333au: hmmmm ... that's pretty bleak ... and you are thinking of ending it then?
donsigw: I will of course continue to play out the turns - but my heart is not in it and I see little reason to stand up to KISS so your team can benefit
fe3333au: I'm sorry you feel that way

Trying to remain ... ummm ... diplomatic
fe3333au: But we are helping you guys with the analysis and have made it clear to Nuts that we will not tollerate them attacking you

Honest and Weak
donsigw: we don't have the strength to fight them. We marched a stack of pikes next to Spite and they tore it to shredds
fe3333au: Yes I see

fe3333au: So all you got is KISS as an enemy ... who are unfortunatly in Golden Age atm
donsigw: KISS is a very strong opponent even without their GA. Remember, we have killed maybe five of thie swordsmen

So what are they doing ??!!!
fe3333au: are you just concentrating on military units now?
donsigw: there keep sending units over - three settlers, who knows how many pikes, a bunch of trebuchets and who knows how many more swords
donsigw: no, we are building barracks now
fe3333au: rushing them with cash?
donsigw: no, saving cash

<Uggg> :wallbash:

donsigw: if the Galls attacks we will switch the barracks to units then rush them
fe3333au: I don't understand why? ... do you need more cash?

Reasonings
donsigw: we do not know where the Galls will strike next. We do not have enough units (or time to build units) to cover all the bases ... we have our immortals and trebuchets but if an attack is made out of their reach we'll need to rush units - so we are saving gold for that ... we have very SMALL cities
fe3333au: I sent a letter saying we will have Galley in place to act as an eye so you get warning if they try landing on your northern coast

<Ignored ... still reporting>
donsigw: we no longer have an eastern core ... we're pulling in only about 50gpt - not enough to rush a unit every turn if we drain the treasury
fe3333au: Golden Age will finish and then the units will be less.
donsigw: they already have enough units over here to take us out - they just don't realize how weak we are

Honour Stressed ... I was really fighting to just switch off !!!!
fe3333au: well all I can do is post this and see if we can help more ... but fighting KISS before peace over is a non-negotiable issue
donsigw: well, that's your call

TNT to offer peace to KISS
donsigw: perhaps I will offer them peace
fe3333au: That may be the only option

I wanted to say more ... but changed subject
fe3333au: Change question ... do you zip the save or is it g-mail?
donsigw: I do not zip the save
fe3333au: bloody g-mail is causing a glitch in the save then ... we cannot use CivAssist and I'm having wierd things in Espionage screen
donsigw: don't know anything about CivAssist
fe3333au: Tool some of us use for city stuff ... helps with placement and micromanagement ... I don't use it either

They must learn that for us to support them ... we must be given information !!!
fe3333au: So it's upto you if you send us Battlelogs or not ... we will be sending Invention in 3 turns ... if you still want it

Bah Humbug !!!
donsigw: There were two posts saying not to send the battle logs. That's enough to out vote me so they won't be sent.
fe3333au: We will send a responce officially and see if we can persuade your comrades
donsigw: ok - good luck with it

Nutter curiosity ... gives me a chance to say again what we have done on thier behalf
donsigw: does your team have a peace treaty with the Nutters?
fe3333au: no ... but we sent them a letter saying that we would consider it but only if they do not attack you
donsigw: are you negotiating one with them?
fe3333au: if they attack you ... we will attack them
donsigw: will that be in any treaty you make with them?
fe3333au: sorry? ... yes it is a clause we insist on

<Confused with the last question>
fe3333au: was your question am I the one negotiating with Nuts?
donsigw: no, the question was *is MIA negotiating a treaty with the nutters?* - I wanted to know about how such a treaty would affect your stance that you will not tolerate them attacking us (which you've answered)

Time Frame
donsigw: do you know off hand what turn your peace treaty with KISS expires?
fe3333au: 166
donsigw: Any thoughts on what will happen on turn 167?

Save sent ... but won't look at it as I am tired 8.30am
donsigw: BTW, I just sent the save out.
fe3333au: cool :)

About our potential plans after peace runs it's course
fe3333au: We don't like the advantage that KISS is getting ... so many are eager to put them it their place
donsigw: I don't know if we can hang on for 33 more turns ... I think it would be better for us to make peace and build up so we can attack them together

What would KISS want ?!!
fe3333au: Give them some land I guess is really the only option
donsigw: Do you suggest giving them more than they already have taken?
fe3333au: I suspect they will want something for peace
donsigw: do you think your teammates would agree to helping us recover (after turn 167 of course) whatever we concede to the Galls?
fe3333au: I would think that is a possibility ... a very good one ... but will have to see what they demand ... they may want some cities
donsigw: we wouldn't give them cities ... we'd abandon them first. We've already showed them we will do that
fe3333au: I hope negotiations will go well ... just don't mention our support for you

<We will have to reiterate the confidentiality clause in official dispatches!!!>

donsigw: their previous demands were that we not build any cities east of our present holding and we give them our next three techs. May have been more, I didn't take it seriously at the time ... well, I think we would only make concessions to them if we had the word of the Greeks that they would help us recover what we concede
fe3333au: Hmmm ... I take that onboard

Our Perspective
fe3333au: We will need to know what the concessions are before we can confirm
donsigw: so, if they offer peace we ask for time to think it over and we'll confer with your team behind the scenes ... yes, I wouldn't expect you to agree unless you knew what you were agreeing to

But we want to make perfectly clear that we have conditions for our help !!!
fe3333au: that sounds good for us ... and in the interim we will see if we can help in any other way ... however I know our team would prefer Battle Logs ... you may like to pass that on the the other 2 players
donsigw: I will post this chat
fe3333au: good ... I'm editing it as we chat

Damn they are eager to fight !!! :rolleyes:
donsigw: ok - one last idea for your team to chew on ... let's say for kicks we can make a decent peace with the Galls within ten turns. Would your tea, like to joim us in an attack on the Nutters? ... don't answer now - just post the idea and think about it ... if we can secure peace with in ten turns we'd have a good twenty turns left to attack the Nutters before your treaty with the Galls expire ... that's ten turns to prepare
fe3333au: hmmm interesting ... you would have to confirm a long peace with KISS for that to work

Uggg :shake: ... glad I'm not on thier team !!!!
donsigw: well, we wouldn't want it to be too long ... we'd want to attack them next ... anyway discuss it and we can hopefully make peace with them for an appropriate time
fe3333au: sure will
donsigw: since we're buildig immortals it's a shame to let them waste away
donsigw: would make the game more fun for us, too

Closing down ... I am too tired to suffer fools
fe3333au: I'm sorry there is not much of a team over there ... I thought you got some new players
donsigw: we're trying - but nice war in the south would rekindle interest for sure

Great Idea ... wish we thought of that !!! :cringe:
donsigw: perhaps your team should try to find out what mutual security deals KISS and the Nutters have
fe3333au: we are trying to do that and also to seed doubt in KISS

and please don't be too eager for war ... you need recover time surely
fe3333au: maybe a three team vs KISS scenario could work
donsigw: that could work but I think we could smash the nutters and then take on KISS together as well ... it would be much easier to coordinate two teams than three

ENOUGH !!!!! ... We too are disappointed that we have to carry dead weight !!!! :aargh:
donsigw: MIA and TNT have had a decent relationship so far. We are very disappointed that you're standing by while we bear the wrath of KISS but a successful alliance against the Nutters would recement our relationship and give us some good practice for a joint venture against KISS in the future
donsigw: well, I've gotta go
fe3333au: cya
Click to expand...

NOTE ... nothing against Donsig ... It's the lack of a proper team at TNT that makes me angry. :sad:

Sorry I feel the need to have a nap so Looking Glass has to wait ... Don't Forget Mother's Day :D
 
Their attitude is frustrating but certainly understandable. Whatever happens next, they have no chance whatsoever of winning this game, and it can't be fun to spend a lot of time on something like that. If we were in their position, I would continue playing the turns and doing my best out of fairness to the other teams, but my heart wouldn't be in it either, similar to the way donsig feels.

On to specifics - this is what I was afraid of:

donsigw: we don't have the strength to fight them. We marched a stack of pikes next to Spite and they tore it to shredds
Click to expand...

They had no business trying to attack a town and moving within reach of KISS' offense. Their only chance was kill ratio, and I am not the least bit surprised they didn't realize it.

donsigw: they already have enough units over here to take us out - they just don't realize how weak we are
Click to expand...

Let that be a warning to us - we are average compared to TNT.

I can't believe TNT is looking for another war immediately, but one step at a time. Let's see if KISS will even consider peace, and we'll go from there.
 
I agree with Chamnix&#8230; I actually feel sorry for TNT. They brought a lot of this on themselves&#8230; but still &#8211; it wouldn&#8217;t be much fun to be in their position.
(And as annoying as they can be &#8211; remember&#8230; they&#8217;ve forced KISS to mostly squander their GA on military&#8230; forever helping MIA no matter what happens next. Thanks TNT!)

We should definitely encourage them to get a peace treaty with KISS.
The &#8220;next 3 techs&#8221; part is the only one that scares me. Of course &#8211; if TNT offered to do Gunpowder, Chemistry, Metallurgy&#8230; then we&#8217;d know how fast (how slow?) KISS is getting those techs.
But KISS isn&#8217;t stupid&#8230; they&#8217;ll no doubt want TNT to go up the peaceful techs. Even then&#8230; TNT&#8217;s research is pitiful. The can appropriately slow KISS down by just taking their sweet time with those techs also. (Say at 20-30% science?)

Heck &#8211; if KISS allows TNT to be vague about what 3 techs they are going to research, we could have TNT research straight to Free Artistry! :lol: That&#8217;d be beautiful. (And MIA would generously trade the Military Techs to TNT for their worthless printing press, Democracy, and Free Artistry)

Even in the worst-case scenario where KISS specifies the 3 techs they want and mandates a certain level of tech spending&#8230; TNT still will be slower than the Dnuts, and will consequently slow KISS down more than just trading with the Nutters.

No matter what &#8211; I support encouraging TNT to get a peace deal &#8211; at any cost in land, and to just do the best they can in promising very little tech. (we can even suggest that they offer to do the military techs &#8211; if not that, then just try to be vague and promise KISS &#8220;our next 3 techs&#8221; &#8211; and no matter what, do what they can to play down their research ability so they can do minimum research no matter what they finally agree to.)

Then we&#8217;ll just have to see what KISS lets them get away with.
 
I think (hope?) TNT is just having a bad day.

Look at the end of the chat. Gangbangers for a new war with DNUT.... How unfortunate. I agree with FE: I'm very glad to have wound up on this team. It's a really good fit for me.

As for the Battle Logs, I'm not against paying for them. But if we're sending TNT gold, then we must have the right to determine precisely how that gold is spent (just as TNT has the right to specify how the battle logs are to be used.)

The consequence of KISS demanding (and TNT offering) the next 3 techs is that we will have to shut TNT out of Tech Trading. Personally, I don't think that's a problem, as long as we isolate DNUT from KISS at the same time. MIA can slip TNT some techs later on, if we feel that's necessary. But until TNT have researched 3 techs for KISS, we clearly can't help TNT with research (or gold).

As for attacking KISS on 167, I'm not willing to commit to anything this soon. Let's wait until 150 or so, and see if TNT is still around, before committing to anything so rash.

In order to help out TNT, as I stated above, I'm willing to buy the battle logs. But we must be able to specify how the Gold is spent. Anyone else with me on this? I'm thinking somewhere around 40 gold per log. Is that crazy?
 
I don't really think the battle logs are worth that much to us. I'm curious about how many units KISS loses, but I'm more likely to get so :mad: at TNT's tactics that I might consider paying not to have to look at them.;)
 
I'm goint to stake-out the middle ground here.

I'm willing to pay about 10-20 gold max for the Battle logs. Only because I'm curious and I don't mind helping TNT. We can really live without them.

Fact is, we're likely to have to engage in some deficit spending if we want to maintain our 4 turn research pace. And I think we most certainly do. So I want to keep our reserves healthy so that we don't have to slow our research.

That's my two cents anyway.
 
Well, General_W, I just knew you'd say that :)

I also suspected that Chamnix didn't want to see the gory details.

But I'm not saying that the battlelogs are worth 40 gpt (to pick a number) on their own. Every bit of gold that we spend is actually mitigating and reducing KISS' military. The battlelogs are just an excuse to give them gold, and the gold is an incentive to the recalcitrant TNTers to let us help them (and help ourselves in the process)

But, having just read the Tech spending forecast, it doensn't look like we have enough gold to spare. So maybe we need to send a firm message to TNT:
Thanks for not sending us the battle logs. We don't really care about your war, when it comes down to it. We just felt like giving you 400 gold for libraries and cash-rushing explorers. We don't truly care about your survival, and we obviously don't need the battlelogs to see how badly you're losing. Good luck!
Click to expand...
 
I also hope that it is a bad day for Donsig ... he was venting half the time ... I didn't like the because we're not winning we are not having fun so stuff you guys I'm taking my ball and going home ... Oh forget it :rolleyes:

:hmm: Interestingly it puts another bent on Skippy's question about what do we know about TNT as a team.
 
Here is the data for TNT

Hi TNT

Turn Report ... 133

Nothing has changed in the previous information.

Following from a chat with Donsig, I understand your frustration in our inability to attack KISS but as mentioned we will not break a treaty.

I am saddened that you feel that we are not deserving your Battle Report, we have been upfront with you and have sent freely all the raw data that we have and also sent analysis not freely available in the game. We have suggested strategies and have lobbied and threatened on your behalf. I am at a loss as to why TNT would hold these back from us since both teams would benefit.

However if truth be told they are not essential and it would only give us a rough estimate of KISS' military forces and they still have another 7 turns before they exit their Golden Age.

Peace is probably a wise option and we hope you succeed. Invention, if you still wish it will be another 2 turns comming.


Sincerely MIA
Click to expand...
 
Looks good Fe.

Maybe consider adding... "and we've generously given you far more gold than we would ever give to any other team" ... to the list of things we've done for them in the past.
 
SENT to Donsig and greekguy.

Title ... MIA Intel Turn Report and Responce to Recent Chat
This is to remain confidential between our two teams.

Hi TNT

Turn Report ... 133 ... Nothing has changed in the previous information.


During a chat with Donsig, he stressed TNT's frustration in our choice to uphold our treaty rather then attack KISS. Unfortunately, as was made perfectly clear some time ago ... MIA will not break a treaty ... our team decided in the early stages that we will play this game with honour and that our word has meaning. So please do not ask us to do so ever again as it is non-negotiable for us!


I am saddened that TNT feel affronted by this and therefore have decided that we are not deserving of your Battle Reports. We have been upfront with you and have sent freely and openly ALL the raw data that you requested and more. Also MIA, have sent you reports worth hours of analysis not freely available in the game, we have suggested strategies, have sent units to act as spotters and on an international level have lobbied and threatened on your behalf. I am still at a loss as to why TNT have taken this stance in holding back the requested information from us, especially since BOTH teams benefit. :confused:

However if truth be told they are not essential and it would only give us a rough estimate of KISS' military forces at this stage considering that the Idiots still have another 7 turns before they exit their Golden Age.

Peace is probably a wise option for you and we sincerely hope you succeed. We are still discussing the wisdom of attacking KISS as soon as the treaty expires as timing and surprise is essential for a military campaigne to succeed.

Invention, if you still wish it, will be another 2 turns coming.


Sincerely MIA
Click to expand...
 
I agree with Classical Hero :eek:

In as much that I am happy to use them until the benefits they give become negligible. Then is the time to cut them adrift and perhaps place a little rememberance plaque in a wall somewhere nice, perhaps with a comfortable wooden bench and a view of the colossus. :)
 
TNT Responce

greekguy said:
Dear MIA,

Our military is still in decent shape, even with the big battle we had recently. We are currently rebuilding our forces and should attack the KISS cities soon. We will put an end to the Gallic prescence on our continent in a matter of time.

As answered by donsig in the chat, the Galls have access to Ivory through Auda City. Since they didn't pillage the roads connecting their three cities, and they built a harbor in Malice, they can send Ivory back to their capital. However, their supply will be cut off rather abruptly after some "shipping" problems. ;)

Concerning the Battle Logs, my team has decided to not provide it to you. We rather not share this information mainly because we don't have an official peace treaty signed yet. We sent you a peace treaty in our last message and we were hoping for a reply. So, if you would sign the treaty and agree to 60 turns of peace, we will send you the Battle Logs.

Bye for now. :)

greekguy, TNT Greek Ambassador
Click to expand...

I get confused with schizophrenic TNT :wallbash:

I see no reason not to sign a peace deal with TNT, after all it's not a mutual protection pact. Battle reports will give our bored Defence Minister something to occupy himself with ;)
 
Ha Ha! TNT has a Dr. Jekel/Mr. Hyde thing going on. We're losing to KISS and about to quit... No, we're about to attack KISS and throw them off our continent... No, KISS already has enough force here to wipe us out... Actually, we're thinking of Fighting the Dnuts again...
(slaps forehead)

Anyway - I'm also in favor of the 60-year peace deal. I'm not even sure TNT will be around that long, and I would really like to get some more info about the KISS military. Plus, I'd like to see TNT get a bit of a morale boost&#8230; and there's just no way we'll be attacking them in the next 60 turns. (A permanent treaty is ridiculous&#8230; but 60 turns is ok&#8230; a little silly&#8230; but ok)

That's my 2 cents anyway.
 
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