TNT Files Term 7 - 9

If we decide not to assist TNT much more, we can use BCLG's slip as justification. That slip-up really undermines their credibility with us. I also wonder if we should continue to give them our Military adviser info... not that KISS can't guess much of it anyway...

I don't accept BCLG's excuse that "it was a slip up at 2am". Time of day is irrelevant, and if one is speaking with the enemy while very tired, one should have better judgement in the first place. I wonder what other things have slipped through their lips; things that we have told them that we'd rather not have passed on to KISS? He claimed that was the only instance, but how does he know? He only knows about that one because Fe called him out on it.

We should stop sending them any info we don't want DNUT or KISS to have.
 
I think that we will need to "coach" TNT through the war if they want to win.They are definately unable to think straight (KISS built a city, and we have a small military... lets attack their city!) I am getting very annoyed with TNT.
 
peter grimes said:
If we decide not to assist TNT much more, we can use BCLG's slip as justification. That slip-up really undermines their credibility with us. I also wonder if we should continue to give them our Military adviser info... not that KISS can't guess much of it anyway...

I don't accept BCLG's excuse that "it was a slip up at 2am". Time of day is irrelevant, and if one is speaking with the enemy while very tired, one should have better judgement in the first place. I wonder what other things have slipped through their lips; things that we have told them that we'd rather not have passed on to KISS? He claimed that was the only instance, but how does he know? He only knows about that one because Fe called him out on it.

We should stop sending them any info we don't want DNUT or KISS to have.
Stuff them, they are now all alone.
 
Draft TNT letter

Title ... MIA Turn 135
Greetings TNT

CONFIDENTIAL !!!

Good to see that your team has rallied and the game continues :D

The loss of Gems automatically halted our Fur trade ... therefore instead of sending Invention as we previously stated we were wondering if you wanted Furs instead. We await your preference.

Our knight on route to KISS zone will climb a mountain near your city.
Our Galley has spotters in the crow's-nest looking out for KISS units.

Now to the security breach, in response to our concerns BCLG100 replied that the breach was unintended, I apologise if my message was abrupt, but I saw that both yourself and Whomp were on-line and therefore had to fully express the urgency of the situation.

But in a follow-up message ...
Oh and just to add, our alliance is not secret and it hasn't been for a very long time, it is plainly obvious we are working together so there is no way we can keep it secret, our trade deal in the ancient age portrayed the view to everyone that we were working together.

We require more information as to the extent of the KISS suspicions. While it is plainly obvious that we are trading goods and that we had technology dealing at the end of the Ancient Age, you were informed that this was never hidden from others.
However, technology post Ancient Age could easily be explained as TNT's self research, unless of course KISS know that your research has been turned off.

Why do we need to know?

The answer is that when engaging in diplomacy it is good to know what suspicions your rival has beforehand, the situation I found myself in was not one I would like to repeat ... and as has been previously stated and supported by your team, we have and continue to negotiate with others on your behalf.

Regarding your call to arms against Nuts, we are eager to assist however the warning from BCLG100 in his initial reply.
on a side note, you need to defend your borders, especially from KISS's side just something scoutsout let slip, apparantly they have just as many units on that border if not more than what are with us.
This is a revelation that is of concern to us and has led to discussion of options ... either way any military action will not be instant as units need to be trained and shipped over to unexpected Dut targets, surprise is of the essence in this scenario.

We will continue to use diplomatic options into pressuring the Nuts to cease their action against you. We assume that the Nuts are now encroaching the area where KISS hope to expand, which may inhibit KISS.

Sincerely

Feaurius III
MIA Foreign Offices
 
I haven't looked at the save yet, but I'm inclined to give TNT both Invention and furs this turn. Neither costs us a thing, so why not? They could both conceivably help against KISS. I also think they are more likely to consider giving us a town if we show extra support than if we withhold stuff and try to trade for it - we have plenty of future considerations to trade.
 
I was thinking of holding off one of them for the trade ... but if you want to send both ... OK

I'll add it to the letter, in fact it may be good to build support when we ask for the city and also as consolation for probably not going to war with Nuts.

When will we make an offer for a city?
 
Dnuts said they were poised to take another town next turn - think it is the Keep? I think probably not - for Dnuts to be able to attack it on 136, their troops would have been visible to TNT on TNT's 134, and they would have known something was up. Also the Keep had at least a pike in it when we were there, so Dnuts can't be certain of taking it.
 
That letter is looking good Fe.

I agree with Chamnix - I'd give them both Invention and Furs for free - and make a big deal out of us "supporting them in this difficult time."

I love the stalling regarding Dnuts - lets see if we can seal the town deal before we have to make the final call on attacking the Dnuts.

Then, I'd actually close the letter with something like this...
Finally, we also must tell you that in a conversation with RobiD, the fool let slip the knowledge that Dnuts are getting very close to taking yet another city of yours.
While we’re still mobilizing our armies, this presents a very serious challenge –and we’d like to offer a kind of radical solution.
What if we continued to provide you Furs for as long as you need them for nothing in return, and gave you Gunpowder for FREE when we get it (expected in about 10 turns… or maybe less) – in exchange, you give us Mezzonite Keep. We know it’s always painful to lose a city, but the Nuts advancing from your south, and the KISS on the rampage in your North – it’s looking grim for holding that town anyway.
To sweeten the deal even further, if you agree to this – in addition to the free furs and free Gunpowder tech (worth 1440 gold/beakers), we will also give you a FREE lifetime supply of silks AND 2 free slave workers to help make up for the lost population. (We believe having a city on your continent will allow us to trade).
You could certainly evacuate your defensive pike to help defend your cities by the mountains. We will use our Knight, and maybe rush some units to defend that town.

If the city is likely going to be lost anyway – how much better to get free luxuries, free technology, free workers, and deny your enemies another city near your core?

Please consider this!


Or something like that! Either way – I wouldn’t wait long to bring up this proposal – this decision has to be made soon, or TNT may get suspicious that we’re not so gung-ho to attack the Nuts anymore. Also – we don’t want them to agree to the trade, then lose the town to the nuts before it can go through!

My 2 cents!
:salute:
 
Everyone must know what I'm going to say... but seriously, everything else we give costs us nothing - furs, silks, Gunpowder... why throw in 2 workers?

Also, I think if they give us the town, then all units in the town will be transported to their capital although we should confirm that before saying anything.
 
That's a very radical move ... what are other's thoughts.

Mine are if this is to work we will also

1. Have to sign the peace treaty ... OK
2. Attack Nuts (I suspect TNT will demand this)
... else we can sign treaty with Nuts and add a peace with TNT clause.
3. We will have to get a coast city founded asap.
 
2 points:

1) Re: the 2 workers: I guess I was thinking, If I'm TNT with only 10 or so towns left, losing one with no possible population replacement... that's a very cruel blow. 2 free workers would help mitigate that very much. Besides... it's the only part of the offer that actually costs us anything ;)
But if we don't want to offer it - that's fine. It's not like I WANT to lose the workers... I just really want this town deal to go through.

2) Re: Peace and War - I DON'T want to promise to attack the Nuts for this deal. That would not be worth getting the town, imo. We can promise that we're mobilizing for war, that we're seriously examining battle plans against the Nuts, and even promise to put it to a vote. But I am almost 100% sure I will be voting against any proposal to attack the Dnuts.
I'll post more in the Grand Strategy thread as soon as I get time.
 
This just In

greekguy said:
Dear MIA,

In response to your previous message, and since we still have some issues to discuss, my team would like to hold an emergency chat between our two nations. In this chat we can discuss any issues concerning secrecy of information and the ongoing war that threatens our country. Please respond soon with a time in which our teams can sit down and figure out the situation our countries are in and solve our collective problems.

greekguy, TNT Greek Ambassador

Wow ... we will have to work out what exactly our strategy is!

I'm not available on Tuesday (2 days away) ... so maybe tomorrow? ... but that may not be enough time.

If we want to go for Gen_W buy a city, this can be discussed.

Need Input as I want to send something off soon.
 
@General_W - the town we're talking about isn't producing workers anyway in all likelihood. If I'm TNT, workers are not all that relevant right now either - the only things I care about are getting MIA to declare on Dnuts and getting gold to rush units. Gunpowder eventually is good, but 8 turns is probably too late anyway. The problem is we don't really want to give gold, and I agree that war with Dnuts is a very poor exchange for a town - we wouldn't even be able to hold the town from the Dnuts so we gain nothing there and lose Dnuts as a potential ally.

@fe3333au - as far as a chat with TNT, I think we can request the town and we are willing to give anything that doesn't cost us anything ;). We can also honestly tell them that we are preparing for war with Dnuts. We do not know for certain that we are attacking, but it will take a few turns to get troops into position anyway, and we are doing that immediately. If we want multiple participants from MIA, I am generally available for chats only 11PM - 3AM GMT.
 
ok - maybe don't offer the workers... but that town is certainly worth 100 gold to us. When you consider what it would cost for us to do our own settlement.

Maybe we can offer that instead?

I just want the offer to be generous so that TNT will jump at it without trying to tie us down into war with Nuts or some other provision we don't want.
 
It definitely is worth 100g to us (6-7 gpt in general plus a luxury). It's difficult to know how TNT will react to the offer. Obviously the less we give them the better - I guess it's up to our crack negotiating team to decide whether to try to overwhelm them with our initial offer, or to start relatively low and be prepared to raise it.
 
The smart tactic here is to lay many items on the table in exchange for the town. See what they say. If they mention Population compensation, we offer the gold equivalent of a settler.

I'm on the side of including General_W's closing paragaph in a letter to be sent today. We want them to have time to consider the town sale before the chat.

As for TNT's expected insistence that we delcare on DNUTS: I agree that we can, in all honesty, tell TNT that we are gearing up for a pending attack. Some specifics that we can tell them are
1. We have ships in place, we are upgrading units, and moving defenses to the embarkation point.
2. We haven't yet decided on a landing zone, so we can't say exactly when our forces will make first contact with the enemy.
3. We must complete construction of an additional Galley (some want to wait for 2) before setting out.
4. Unless something drastic happens, we expect to have an attack underway within 10 turns, more likely within 8.​

I'm available GMT 11pm - 3AM, just like Chamnix. I also now have yahoo messenger installed, but I've never tried it. My YahooID is Pgrimesy
 
TNT letter PMed to grrekguy and BCLG100 and TNT g-mail

Title ... MIA Turn 135
Greetings TNT

CONFIDENTIAL !!!

Good to see that your team has rallied and the game continues :D

The loss of Gems automatically halted our Fur trade :(
Therefore it has unanimously been decided that instead of just sending Invention, we will also re-establish our Fur as a gift with no strings attached. This is a goodwill gesture on our behalf to hopefully let you know that you are not alone and also to show that we are prepared to assist you in many ways in this most dire of times. :salute:

Our Knight continues on route to KISS zone and is near one of your cities.
Our Galley has spotters in the crow's-nest looking out for KISS units.
No change in previous data sent.

Now to the security breach, in response to our concerns BCLG100 replied that the breach was unintended, I apologise if my message was abrupt, but I saw that both he and Whomp were on-line and therefore had to fully express the urgency of the situation. It was blunt and too the point, I concede it may have been less aggressive but I had grave concerns at the time. I accept BCLG100's apology and hope that both teams will place it in the past, but we must both learn from this and ensure that only mis-information or vagueness is presented in future and that we keep each other informed :D

But in a follow-up message ...
Oh and just to add, our alliance is not secret and it hasn't been for a very long time, it is plainly obvious we are working together so there is no way we can keep it secret, our trade deal in the ancient age portrayed the view to everyone that we were working together.

We require more information as to the extent of the KISS suspicions. While it is plainly obvious that we are trading goods and that we had technology dealing at the end of the Ancient Age, you were informed that this was never hidden from others. Our stance on technology dealings post Ancient Age are easily explained as TNT's self research, unless of course KISS know that your research has been turned off.

Why do we need to know?

The answer is that when engaging in diplomacy it is good to know what suspicions your rival has beforehand, the situation I found myself in was not one I would like to repeat: nono: We have previously stated and been encouraged by your team, to continue to negotiate with others on your behalf.

The less others know of our 'real' business, the better we serve each other. :mischief:

Regarding your call to arms against Nuts, we are eager to assist however the warning from BCLG100 in his initial reply.
on a side note, you need to defend your borders, especially from KISS's side just something scoutsout let slip, apparantly they have just as many units on that border if not more than what are with us.
This is a revelation that is of concern to us and has led to discussion of options, either way any military action will not be instant as we are in the process of training military. These will then need to be shipped over to Battle Isle to unload on unsuspecting targets which will have to be wisely chosen in order to fully utilise the element of surprise.

In the interim, we will continue to use diplomatic options into pressuring the Nuts to cease their action against you. We assume that the Nuts are now encroaching the area where KISS hope to expand, which may actually benefit our cause.

Finally, we also must tell you that in a conversation with RobiD, the fool let slip the knowledge that Dnuts are getting very close to taking yet another city of yours.

While as mentioned, we are still mobilizing our armies, this presents a very serious challenge –and we’d like to offer a kind of radical solution for you to consider.

What if we would like you to consider prior to our chat is the idea of you handing over control of Mezzonite Keep :eek:

I can totally understand your concerns, but hear us out ... this city is controlling your continent's silk region which virtually paints a big red target on it's walls. Also it is far from your core and if threatened, will put much stress on your over taxed defenders. It will be safe from KISS due to our treaty and we feel that we can defend it from Nuts as they are concentrating on you at this stage. We of course will compensate you generously and also guarantee your empire silk for life without the requirement of governing an unproductive jungle city. We will also benefit by giving us a presence on your continent which will greatly assist any war effort we stage in your support. You will also be able to move your current defensive garrison to help defend your cities by the mountains. We would use our Knight as initial defender and then rush more units rapidly.

If the city is likely going to be lost anyway – how much better to benefit an ally and gain generous compensation, and also deny your enemies another of your cities?

Please consider this and other options for discussion.


I am usually on AIM when on-line from GMT 23.00 - 12.00 which is (13.00 - 02.00 my time) ... I am however busy during day tomorrow until GMT 05.00.


Sincerely

Feaurius III
MIA Foreign Offices
 
If we are having an AIM chat, i can be there if it is from 6:00 GMT - 14:00 GMT. Maybe getting a new face to talk to TNT might encourage them? Or something, i dont know.
 
Thanks Azza :D ... and others

If I get no warning ... I will post here that is has started, i am not sure as to what format greekguy wants.

At the very least, I will create a whisper room along side the formal discussions :mischief:

I don't think that greekguy will have a problem with more than one deligate, I interpreted his previous letter requesting a chat as 'them' (more than one TNT) wanting a chat with 'us' (more than one MIA).



OK to the nittygritty ... If nothing has changed, this is my understanding.

> We discuss the security breach and future confidentiality.
... will want reports on ALL future diplomatic and chats with other teams.
... will want a TNTer to go through the chats posted on their site and send summary :hammer:
... we can agree to send reports relivant to their situation.

> We discuss what intel apart from troop movements that TNT actually want and can use.
... I request Rel. Military Strength at the very least for us
... and Battle Logs :rolleyes: if possible.
... Stressing that these should be sent separately and NOT as a g-mail cc (let's try keeping secrets) :D

> Mezzonite Keep is Priority
... offer upto 200 gold and Gunpowder and endless silk for the city
... maybe even 1 or 2 free peeks at KISS cities (?) ... Black Purse will pay for half of one.
... Our rationale has been expressed in last letter.

> We will NOT attack Nuts, no matter what
... this will not be expressed as given, but I can NOT agree in chat that we will :salute:
... use excuse about potential KISS attack hinted by BCLG100 :p

> Will can agree to diplomatically try all avenues (except declaring war) to call Nuts off from them.

> If they get angry and do a Donsig and cut all Lux trade
... we attack them !! this will be a given action on our part !
... and I can pull the plug on my frustration dyke ... and let it flow baby :evil:
... hope not ... but after the Battle Log trust issue and Security Fiasco ... well, I have needs guys ;)
... I can however not declare war on them :( ... just express distain for these insects :D

> We basically want TNT to keep KISS busy and distracted for as long as possible.

> We support TNT suing for peace BUT not if they give away tech given by us !!!

Still Unsure ... agreeing to a period of non-aggression deal
... am I correct that this is only if we get Mezzonite Keep ?!!

I am under assumption that we want to create a presence on Battle Isle anyway, and taking our own piece of TNT is a way to recoupe our losses and stops KISS and Nuts from claiming all prizes.


Regarding City Trade
Description: No team or individual is permitted to barter, gift, or otherwise trade multiple cities with the intent of joining teams to destroy another team and keep both teams alive to survive to the end. If a team decides to drop out however, its players are allowed to change teams as permitted under Section 0.3.

Definition: A team trading one or more cities to another team for the purpose of either granting that team an advantage (premature contact with another civ, map information, etc.), or denying an aggressor the right of conquest.

Trading and/or gifting cities is permitted, but each transaction shall be reviewed by the administrators of the game. If a specific transaction is considered to be in violation of the spirit of this law, then the traded/gifted cities may be forcibly returned to their original owner(s) or simply abandoned at the sole discretion of the administrators.

As a general rule, the administrators will consider city gifts/trades that are temporary in nature (i.e. only a few turns in duration) and those given/traded for the purpose of granting a team an advantage (premature contact, map information, etc.) or to deny another team the right of conquest to be against the spirit of this law.
We will need to approach game administrators ... I have done this by sending last letter to GA and RM.
 
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