To Civ IV developers, please please be careful with this 'missionaries' thing...

[Djarum Kretek]

Dear Civ IV developers,

I am trying very hard to reach out to you guys to please reconsider this whole 'missionaries' thing...

On Confucian Missionaries:
I am a Confucian and we do not have missionaries! We do have teachers to spread Confucius' ideas, but not missionaries in like Christians. Confucianism is a private & secular ethical belief system. There is no such thing as missionaries that spread the word of God etc. Because Confucius' teachings are not words of God. There are no 'mission' to be accomplished by the missionaries.

If you truly insist, then please revise it to Confucian Scholars or Confucian teachers or something. Even that is stretching it. They studied Confucianism not to intentionally convert the beliefs of people from other civilizations. I'm serious, really! Please check any world history book.... What happened in Korea and Japan was that they send scholars to learn Confucianism in China... No Chinese were sent there to intentionally convert Japanese and Korean to be Confucians...

On Judaism:
As far as I know, I don't think Jews want to convert non-Jewish people to believe in Judaism. Are there really Judaism missionaries??? Aside from Israel [which is not any of the 18 civilization in Civ IV] no other civilization in history ever adopted Judaism in history... Ok, ok, Civ IV is about changing history, but Judaism is not meant to be practiced by non-Jews, really...

Hinduism and Taoism:
As for Hinduism, I thought if you're not born a Hindu you can't be a Hindu? I've never heard of the existence of Hindu and Taoist missionaries either... Get the concepts straight, please...

The point is: many belief systems are not like Christianity etc. that really have 'missionaries' to convert people to believe their beliefs. Many really don't care what other people want to belief, so they don't even bother having missionaries. Please reconsider the whole thing...

One more thing, on Atheism:
Will the civilizations have no choice in becoming Atheist? Note: if it is so, Atheist also don't have missionaries... The agnostics can join me in using Confucianism, but what about the Atheist, really?

 

[HourlyDaily]

A very good post,

I think you should be able to change the default names of the units easily in the main file (eg: conquests.biq)

I worry about the spread of religion in the late game becuase I don't see it reflected in the real world, yes you have small communities of Christians in say Japan, but no mass state-conversions. Its not an important point really,

I consider the new religious aspect good for adding flavour and another element of realism, but not a major component of game-play. I'm used to secular governments in the countries I've lived. I think athiesm (or the civics options on Theocracies or not/ Tolerance or not) should have buildings to replace them. Call me an idiot, but maybe they would be sporting venues (a religion of its own no?) or a town square or some gathering point. I don't think there is a balance for it becuase religion has been made a key game element, like trade for example.

I'll probably go with Confucianism and Taoism for no reason at all in most of my games.

 

[ThERat]

@Djarum Kretek
a very good and valid post

Though religions played and play a very important role in the history of mankind, the influence has had it's ups and downs and if we look for example at the influence it has nowadays in the western world, one has to say that in modern times, it plays a less important role.
Atheism won't be reflected and I think it isn't fair. Same goes for other type of beliefs such as paganism, natural religions, indigenous beliefs etc.. Why need to opt for one of the 7 favoured religions?
In fact they should balance science and religion, since as level of knowledge went up in history, influence of the church and religion went down. Same goes for superstition. So please think of a more balanced and realistic concept.

 

[mitsho]

there is one big empire that seems to be forgotten, and these are the Khazars. And they were - no kidding - jews! although not a Judaism that the orthodox and less orthodox jews of today would accept as Judaism, they were Jews. (and they're one of the reasons why there were so many Jews in Eastern Europe). and besides Israel is probably represented by judaism...

On the other things, I think you are quite right, but you need to consider that we only have seen a christian missionary on the screens and that they may have some change with other religions.

m

 

[Furius]

Moreover, it would appear (according to my reading of the latest few interviews) that you have to have an open borders treaty or be invading for these missionaries to get to a rival city. In these cases it isn't so unrealistic. Korea & Vietnam for instance became more confucist as a result of being part of the Chinese Empire.
I suspect that a major use of missionaries might be within your own civ, to spread the state religion.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

I think the whole 'need open borders to send missionaries' doesn't really work well anyway. I mean, when did you ever know missionaries to obey the will of a State in deciding where to go-and not go-when 'Spreading the Word'. The way to stop missionaries would be to MASSACRE them (and create an incident) .

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Commander Bello]

Maybe there could be flavour units called "teachers" for religions which are not known for having sent out missionaries?
After all what I've read so far, a city will not flip to a different religion at once, it has to be "convinced" which sounds like a process, so this should fit into both, the missionary aspect as well as the "teaching" aspect.

 

[Djarum Kretek]

there is one big empire that seems to be forgotten, and these are the Khazars. And they were - no kidding - jews! although not a Judaism that the orthodox and less orthodox jews of today would accept as Judaism, they were Jews. (and they're one of the reasons why there were so many Jews in Eastern Europe). and besides Israel is probably represented by judaism...

Khazars? Waah, forgive my ignorance, I never studied them. Ok, gotta look them up... But anyway, since both Khazars and Israel are not part of the 18 civilizations in CIV IV, Judaism is not relevant at all for this game.

Oh, by the way, did the Khazars have Judaism missionaries trying to convert other people to be Judaism believers? If so, that REALLY is different than the current Judaism practice.

To CIV IV developers: please reconsider.... Thank you.

 

[Jaybe]

As I see it, those who are concerned that missionaries would be inappropriate to a particular religion are missing two points:
1. The only thing unique to the civ4 religions (as we know them to date) are their NAMES.
2. When we play civ, history CHANGES.

and third of 2: I would suspect that AI civs will be more willing to sign open border agreements than a player. In that way a player would be able to manipulate the AI by having open borders when it is the player that has missionaries prepared, etc.

 

[Djarum Kretek]

As I see it, those who are concerned that missionaries would be inappropriate to a particular religion are missing two points:
1. The only thing unique to the civ4 religions (as we know them to date) are their NAMES.
2. When we play civ, history CHANGES.

and third of 2: I would suspect that AI civs will be more willing to sign open border agreements than a player. In that way a player would be able to manipulate the AI by having open borders when it is the player that has missionaries prepared, etc.

Hmm, I agree on with your last point about the AI. As for when we play Civ, history changes, that's true... but would we appreciate Civ IV quality if Firaxis designed that Chinese people are part of the European culture and Incan people member of Africans? That would be totally ignorant of them to do so, right?

Now, Confucianism, Taoism, Hinduism, Judaism belief systems just do not produce missionaries because they just don't intentionally want to convert other people.

 

[Warman17]

On Judaism:
As far as I know, I don't think Jews want to convert non-Jewish people to believe in Judaism. Are there really Judaism missionaries??? Aside from Israel [which is not any of the 18 civilization in Civ IV] no other civilization in history ever adopted Judaism in history... Ok, ok, Civ IV is about changing history, but Judaism is not meant to be practiced by non-Jews, really...[/U]

The Khazars adopted Judaism as their main religion.



Anyways, I don't really care if religions that in our world don't have missionaries have them in Civ4. After all who ever heard of space race to get to Alpha Centuri or one nation giving all others the ability to create nukes by building a 'wonder'

 

[belgy42]

Politics and religion; two items to never discuss! Firaxis just added an element to the game that is relevent to our world. Will it be perfect and accurate? No! Will it be fun or annoying? We will have to wait and see. If it bothers you, then don't build missionaries, close your borders to everyone and martyr the ones from other civs.

 

[Urederra]

Politics and religion; two items to never discuss! Firaxis just added an element to the game that is relevent to our world. Will it be perfect and accurate? No! Will it be fun or annoying? We will have to wait and see. If it bothers you, then don't build missionaries, close your borders to everyone and martyr the ones from other civs.

Very good post

I was thinking about the Knight's templar in C3C and when is built by a non european Civilization. It does not make sense either. (Arabic or Japanese crusades?) But it helps keeping the game balanced. It would be unfair if only european civilizations could build the Knight's templar.

 

[evirus]

Dear Civ IV developers,

I am trying very hard to reach out to you guys to please reconsider this whole 'missionaries' thing...

On Confucian Missionaries:
I am a Confucian and we do not have missionaries! We do have teachers to spread Confucius' ideas, but not missionaries in like Christians. Confucianism is a private & secular ethical belief system. There is no such thing as missionaries that spread the word of God etc. Because Confucius' teachings are not words of God. There are no 'mission' to be accomplished by the missionaries.

If you truly insist, then please revise it to Confucian Scholars or Confucian teachers or something. Even that is stretching it. They studied Confucianism not to intentionally convert the beliefs of people from other civilizations. I'm serious, really! Please check any world history book.... What happened in Korea and Japan was that they send scholars to learn Confucianism in China... No Chinese were sent there to intentionally convert Japanese and Korean to be Confucians...

On Judaism:
As far as I know, I don't think Jews want to convert non-Jewish people to believe in Judaism. Are there really Judaism missionaries??? Aside from Israel [which is not any of the 18 civilization in Civ IV] no other civilization in history ever adopted Judaism in history... Ok, ok, Civ IV is about changing history, but Judaism is not meant to be practiced by non-Jews, really...

Hinduism and Taoism:
As for Hinduism, I thought if you're not born a Hindu you can't be a Hindu? I've never heard of the existence of Hindu and Taoist missionaries either... Get the concepts straight, please...

The point is: many belief systems are not like Christianity etc. that really have 'missionaries' to convert people to believe their beliefs. Many really don't care what other people want to belief, so they don't even bother having missionaries. Please reconsider the whole thing...

One more thing, on Atheism:
Will the civilizations have no choice in becoming Atheist? Note: if it is so, Atheist also don't have missionaries... The agnostics can join me in using Confucianism, but what about the Atheist, really?

missionary is just a word to describe a specific type of person... much like how man can be used to refer to males but it is also used to refer to humans

 

[Level]

I have met Buddhist missionaries, they probably weren't called that but they were actively trying to convert people, I have even met a guy who seemed to be a Hindu one although he said you had to be born Hindu, so it was kind of weird.

Edit: I see you didn't say Buddhist, oh well.

 

[JavalTigar]

yet another reason why the religions should have been abstract like the goverment.

 

[Lockesdonkey]

The Jews preached to the Kings of Yemen in the fourth century AD. They were competing with Christians for the spiritual allegience of this very powerful ruler; he controlled some very important trade with Ethiopia, Africa, and India. In doing so, they also were pitching alliances with the two major powers of the day, Persia and the Eastern Roman Empire. Conversion to Christianity signaled an alliance with Constantinople; conversion to Judaism indicated that the king had thrown his lot with the Persians (the Mazdaist--or Zoroastrian, same thing--Persians disliked Christians as possible Roman agents, but were friendly to the Jews and consequently used Jews as ambassadors to the lands to their west). In 395, a King of Yemen converted to Judaism, and the Christians were ordered to stop preaching to him. He left the Christians alone, however.

 

[Carver]

Abstracted religion would have been better; it would have avoided complaints like this. But, for Civ4 purposes, the religions are just names - if you like you can rename them alpha, beta, delta etc. or whatever.

I don't think it matters that Jews don't send out missionaries in real life. In real life Ghandi never nuked 10 cities as he sometimes does in Civ. Nations in Civ will take actions they never took in real life; similarly, religions in Civ can do things they never did in real life.

 

[minger]

Yeah, I also don't like the whole "christianizing" of other religions in terms of terminology (i.e. Jewish "cathedral"!?!? Just call it a synogogue or something).

The problem is that they are worried about differentiating the religions too much in terms of function, b/c then everyone in the world will be offended.

 

[Djarum Kretek]

Abstracted religion would have been better; it would have avoided complaints like this. But, for Civ4 purposes, the religions are just names - if you like you can rename them alpha, beta, delta etc. or whatever.

I don't think it matters that Jews don't send out missionaries in real life. In real life Ghandi never nuked 10 cities as he sometimes does in Civ. Nations in Civ will take actions they never took in real life; similarly, religions in Civ can do things they never did in real life.

Ok, I agree to the point where somethings in this Civilization game never took place in real life. True. But to say that Christianity is part of Polytheism is just very wrong. And then to assign peaceloving, seafaring trait to Genghis Khan is also just wrong. Civ also should not define Democracy as a system where freedom of expression is suppressed, right? Now I emplore the developers to be careful with this missionaries thing.